Top 25 talk

[magicman]

Another interesting tidbit...  All 9 WIAC teams are ahead of Wisconsin's lone D-II school, UW Parkside.  Parkside's at 801, and the lowest WIAC school Oshkosh, is at 710. 

Here's an article about teaching at UW-Parkside:

http://hnn.us/articles/1019.html

OxyBob

Wow!  Having read the article, I am glad that UW-Parkside "chose D-II"!

Thanks for finding the link.  +1! 

Not so fast.

I applaud Parkside for trying to reach underachieving students.  Many will flounder (some of whom will get it together later, and succeed).  Some, who would NEVER have been admitted to Occidental or McMurry, will discover the wonders of a real education (perhaps not an option at their high school) and blossom.

I taught at several totally 'open enrollment' schools (and most of my career at Eastern Michigan, which is virtually open enrollment: admitting something like 80% of applicants).  It is a tremendous challenge, but also a tremendous opportunity.  While I had plenty of students who were majoring in 'beer', and plenty who were (at least for then) hopelessly behind, I also had students who could have gotten a 4.0 at Harvard but were monetarily challenged, and those who simply had the guts to thrive.  (I'll never forget one student, totally beaten down by her family then her abusive husband, that I finally approached about 9:30 one December evening: "Diane, if you had not even shown up for the final, you had an A!  Everyone else left at least 20 minutes ago, please go home!")

Another tale, about the 'finally got it': I had a student, a marvelous jazz singer, but with NO educational background.  She had flunked statistics twice, once from someone else, once from me.  Even though I had failed her, she apparently saw something.  She tried me for her third (and last) attempt.  She got an A (which would have been an A+ if EMU allowed it).  She didn't give up; I didn't give up; 'something' finally 'clicked'.  She, of course, would never have been admitted at 'most' schools.  [She is now a social services administrator (and still a marvelous jazz singer).]

At schools like Parkside, there will be lots of students who are 'not college material' (and, realistically, many will forever be not college material), but I would not want to live in a country where second chances (or, in the case of truly failing high schools, first chances) are not available.  Occidental and McMurry are not obligated to take them, but I'm glad there are places like Parkside.

Well said Mr Yipsi. I completely agree with your statement. It's teachers like you that make a difference!!

[OxyBob]

Another interesting tidbit...  All 9 WIAC teams are ahead of Wisconsin's lone D-II school, UW Parkside.  Parkside's at 801, and the lowest WIAC school Oshkosh, is at 710. 

Here's an article about teaching at UW-Parkside:

http://hnn.us/articles/1019.html

Wow!  Having read the article, I am glad that UW-Parkside "chose D-II"!

And the results prove Thomas Reeves's point:

UW-Parkside wants better graduation rate: Ranked last in UW System

OxyBob

[Gregory Sager]

Another interesting tidbit...  All 9 WIAC teams are ahead of Wisconsin's lone D-II school, UW Parkside.  Parkside's at 801, and the lowest WIAC school Oshkosh, is at 710.  

Here's an article about teaching at UW-Parkside:

http://hnn.us/articles/1019.html

OxyBob

Wow!  Having read the article, I am glad that UW-Parkside "chose D-II"!

Thanks for finding the link.  +1!  

Not so fast.

I applaud Parkside for trying to reach underachieving students.  Many will flounder (some of whom will get it together later, and succeed).  Some, who would NEVER have been admitted to Occidental or McMurry, will discover the wonders of a real education (perhaps not an option at their high school) and blossom.

I taught at several totally 'open enrollment' schools (and most of my career at Eastern Michigan, which is virtually open enrollment: admitting something like 80% of applicants).  It is a tremendous challenge, but also a tremendous opportunity.  While I had plenty of students who were majoring in 'beer', and plenty who were (at least for then) hopelessly behind, I also had students who could have gotten a 4.0 at Harvard but were monetarily challenged, and those who simply had the guts to thrive.  (I'll never forget one student, totally beaten down by her family then her abusive husband, that I finally approached about 9:30 one December evening: "Diane, if you had not even shown up for the final, you had an A!  Everyone else left at least 20 minutes ago, please go home!")

Another tale, about the 'finally got it': I had a student, a marvelous jazz singer, but with NO educational background.  She had flunked statistics twice, once from someone else, once from me.  Even though I had failed her, she apparently saw something.  She tried me for her third (and last) attempt.  She got an A (which would have been an A+ if EMU allowed it).  She didn't give up; I didn't give up; 'something' finally 'clicked'.  She, of course, would never have been admitted at 'most' schools.  [She is now a social services administrator (and still a marvelous jazz singer).]

At schools like Parkside, there will be lots of students who are 'not college material' (and, realistically, many will forever be not college material), but I would not want to live in a country where second chances (or, in the case of truly failing high schools, first chances) are not available.  Occidental and McMurry are not obligated to take them, but I'm glad there are places like Parkside.

Also, take another look at that article about UW-Parkside -- specifically, the comments section at the bottom. There's a lot of (admittedly anecdotal) testimony that Professor Reeves is that brand of academician with which many of us are, unfortunately, all-too-familiar: The sanctimonious crank.

I have no doubt that there's a lot of truth in the article. I do think that American higher education has been in steep decline for a long time, that phrases such as "diploma mill," "grade inflation," "student apathy," and "education without learning" are valid to varying degrees on various college campuses. But a lot of what goes on in the classroom has to do with the instructor's attitude, demeanor, approachability, care, and concern. There's evidence that Prof. Reeves cooked his own goose by being a haughty, insulting, and intimidating teacher who rightly earned his fate as a frustrated time-server.

[OxyBob]

Also, take another look at that article about UW-Parkside -- specifically, the comments section at the bottom. There's a lot of (admittedly anecdotal) testimony that Professor Reeves is that brand of academician with which many of us are, unfortunately, all-too-familiar: The sanctimonious crank.

Then again, maybe he knows what he's talking about...

http://www.nas.org/polArticles.cfm?doc_id=708

OxyBob

[Gregory Sager]

Which parts of these two sentences:

I have no doubt that there's a lot of truth in the article. I do think that American higher education has been in steep decline for a long time, that phrases such as "diploma mill," "grade inflation," "student apathy," and "education without learning" are valid to varying degrees on various college campuses.

... did you not understand, O-Bob?

I didn't disagree with Reeves's overall diagnosis, nor do I disagree with the content of the article you just posted. What I said was that there is evidence from several former students and from faculty colleagues of Reeves that to some degree he poisoned the atmosphere of his classes with his bad attitude and thus exacerbated the apathy, distance, and desertion he experienced from his students.

[dahlby]

I have a brother that teaches at a state school in the midwest. The article could have been written by him. The no text book, don't attend classes, didn't study, slept through classes are only a few of the comments I receive from him when I ask about how things are going at...... The best though are, I was late for class because my girlfriend and I partied really late last night and she wanted to sleep in, so she turned off the alarm clock. This excuse was not solicited by my brother, the student came up after class and offered it. The other prime was  that I don't have a book because I went to a frat party and spent all my money.

My brother has generous office hours and offers to tutor those having problems in class. He is dedicated to his profession, and never gives up hope. OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK!!!

Thanks for finding the article.

[John Gleich]

New poll is out:

http://www.d3hoops.com/top25/

Any surprises?  Point picked up a #1 vote from Wash U, I noticed that...

What's interesting is that, even though Point picked up an extra #1 vote, they lost 2 points on Randolph Macon.  And even though Wash U lost a #1 vote, they stayed right where they were points-wise (which, technically, is losing votes compared to the other 5 teams in the top 6).

I have to say, that is a pretty darn good looking top 6... with all of the losses coming within the group or from other top 25 teams.

Here's the top 6 voting from last week to this week:

Place	School	Record	Wk 6	Wk 5	Change
1	Randolph-Macon (12)	13-0	606	597	9
2	UW-Stevens Point (10)	13-1	594	587	7
3	Washington U. (3)	11-1	577	577	0
4	UW-Whitewater	13-1	555	539	16
5	St. Thomas	10-1	526	518	8
6	Guilford	12-1	512	510	2

The top 6 all won and so it was more codified.  Randolph Macon increased its lead on the rest of the top 6 except for Whitewater, who probably picked up more of Middlebury's inflated votes than the other 6.  Whitewater was likely helped by the re-ranking of Whitworth who comes in at #22.  I honestly still think that's too low... they're probably a top 15 team IMO. 

The #7 position drifted farther away.  Middlebury had been 22 points away and Williams is now 74 points away from #6.  That's an average drop of over 3 poll positions and it really shows a separation between the top 6 and everybody else.

[Hugenerd]

I have to say, that is a pretty darn good looking top 6... with all of the losses coming within the group or from other top 25 teams.

I agree with your analysis, but with respect to bad losses, none of the top 9 teams have a bad loss.  I understand there is a gap in points between 6 and 7, but just thought I would point that out.

Also, big ODAC game between undefeated #1 Randolph Macon and undefeated vs. D3 #18 Eastern Mennonite this Wednesday.  If Eastern Mennonite wins that game, do they jump into the top 7?  They already beat #8 VWU on the road this year and a win like that would validate that it was not a fluke.

[Titan Q]

http://www.d3hoops.com/top25/

http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cb


D3hoops.com Top 25, with current Massey rating (through Jan. 10) in parenthesis:

1 Randolph-Macon (4)
2 UW-Stevens Point (1)
3 Washington U (12)
4 UW-Whitewater (2)
5 St. Thomas (3)
6 Guilford (7)
7 Williams (15)
8 Virginia Wesleyan (13)
9 MIT (27)
10 Middlebury (54)
11 Franklin & Marshall (67)
12 St. Norbert (14)
13 Amherst (38)
14 Anderson (20)
15 Wilmington (11)
16 Chapman (17)
17 St. Mary's (23)
18 Eastern Mennonite (9)
19 Medaille (40)
20 Brandeis (93)
21 Illinois Wesleyan (19)
22 Whitworth (6)
23 Texas-Dallas (41)
24 UW-La Crosse (5)
25 Mississippi College (52)

D3hoops.com Top 25 teams overrated by more 10 spots or more per Massey (8):

#20 Brandeis, +73
#11 Franklin & Marshall, +56
#10 Middlebury, +44
#13 Amherst, +35
#25 Mississippi College, +27
#19 Medaille, +21
#9 MIT, +18
#23 Texas-Dallas, +18

D3hoops.com Top 25 teams underrated by 10 spots or more per Massey (2):

#24 UW-La Crosse, -19
#22 Whitworth, -16

D3hoops.com Top 25 teams within 10 spots of their Massey rating (15):

#1 Randolph-Macon, +3
#2 UW-Stevens Point, -1
#3 Washington U, +9
#4 UW-Whitewater, -2
#5 St. Thomas, -2
#6 Guilford, +1
#7 Williams, +8
#8 Virginia Wesleyan, +5
#12 St. Norbert, +2
#14 Anderson, +6
#15 Wilmington, -4
#16 Chapman, +1
#17 St. Mary's, +6
#18 Eastern Mennonite, -9
#21 Illinois Wesleyan -2

Teams in Massey top 25 that do not appear in D3hoops.com Top 25:

St. John's (#8)
Augsburg (#10)
Gustavus Adolphus (#16)*
William Paterson (#18)*
Augustana (#21)*
Central (#22)
UW-Stout (#24)
UW-Eau Claire (#25)

* receiving votes D3hoops.com

[Titan Q]

I have to say, that is a pretty darn good looking top 6... with all of the losses coming within the group or from other top 25 teams.

Except Wash U.  Transylvania (now 8-6 after losing by 19 at home to Anderson) is not even receiving votes..Massey #128.

[John Gleich]

I have to say, that is a pretty darn good looking top 6... with all of the losses coming within the group or from other top 25 teams.

I agree with your analysis, but with respect to bad losses, none of the top 9 teams have a bad loss.  I understand there is a gap in points between 6 and 7, but just thought I would point that out.

Also, big ODAC game between undefeated #1 Randolph Macon and undefeated vs. D3 #18 Eastern Mennonite this Wednesday.  If Eastern Mennonite wins that game, do they jump into the top 7?  They already beat #8 VWU on the road this year and a win like that would validate that it was not a fluke.

I agree.  I wasn't trying to downplay the rest of the top 10... it seems like our top 10 is very solid finally and that the teams in those spots really should be.  They haven't percolated up because other teams have lost (though that is certainly true)...  It's on their own merit.  'Course, now that I say that, they'll all lose two bad games this week and make us all look silly!

I have to say, that is a pretty darn good looking top 6... with all of the losses coming within the group or from other top 25 teams.

Except Wash U.  Transylvania (now 8-6 after losing by 19 at home to Anderson) is not even receiving votes..Massey #128.

True, I did forget about Wash U and Transy... is that still considered a bad loss because of who Wash U was missing?  (I don't remember who it was... Kelley?  Is he back yet?)

[WUPHF]

True, I did forget about Wash U and Transy... is that still considered a bad loss because of who Wash U was missing?  (I don't remember who it was... Kelley?  Is he back yet?)

Yes, indeed, Zach Kelley was out and Caleb Knepper had missed a game and, I believe, a number of practices, though you would not know that based on the way he played a day later.

Kelley returned on Saturday for 16 minutes and seemed to play well against the Chicago big men.

All things considered, I am not sure how you could call it anything other than a bad loss.

[WUPHF]

The excitement over Whitworth is a mystery to me.  I understand that early season games do not always provide good predictors on how well a team will play as the season rolls on, but take out the win over UW-Whitewater and what do you have?

I was not impressed with Whitworth in St. Louis versus Pomona-Pitzer and equally unimpressed by the win over McKendree (that was the perfect example of McKendree having a team on the ropes).  Seriously, McKendree is not that good.

What else do they have?  A huge loss to UW-Stevens Point and an equally huge win over UW-Whitewater.  Two wins over the Banana Slugs.

I defended this team in the thread early on (in part, because I did not see the margin of loss in the first game).  I am an amateur fan at best.  I admit it.  So, what am I missing here?

[WUPHF]

And, can someone tell me why my karma went down?  What did I do?

[Titan Q]

The excitement over Whitworth is a mystery to me.  I understand that early season games do not always provide good predictors on how well a team will play as the season rolls on, but take out the win over UW-Whitewater and what do you have?

I was not impressed with Whitworth in St. Louis versus Pomona-Pitzer and equally unimpressed by the win over McKendree (that was the perfect example of McKendree having a team on the ropes).  Seriously, McKendree is not that good.

What else do they have?  A huge loss to UW-Stevens Point and an equally huge win over UW-Whitewater.  Two wins over the Banana Slugs.

I defended this team in the thread early on (in part, because I did not see the margin of loss in the first game).  I am an amateur fan at best.  I admit it.  So, what am I missing here?

Note that Stevens Point has beaten a few good teams handily...

UW-SP 101 Whitworth 79
UW-SP 78 St. Thomas 56
UW-SP 73 UW-La Crosse 57

Early on I was holding that margin of defeat against Whitworth, but I no longer am.  The Pointers appear to be the real deal.