Top 25 talk

[David Collinge]

Wow.  Only 33 total teams get votes for the Top 25 in the whole nation.  Is that a record for least number of teams getting any consideration for the Top 25?  8 teams in the ORV category.

I was going to ask the same thing

Didn't there used to be some nutjob who tracked stuff like that?  Whatever happened to him, I wonder? 

Through the end of the 07-08 season, the lowest number of teams to receive votes (in the men's poll) was 38, a few times.  I'll leave it to someone else to see if 33 was reached last season or this season (I'm too lazy to do it myself), but I'd doubt it. 

[gordonmann]

I've been trying to expand the number of teams receiving votes but the teams I pick (Central, DeSales) keep losing.

[magicman]

Wow.  Only 33 total teams get votes for the Top 25 in the whole nation.  Is that a record for least number of teams getting any consideration for the Top 25?  8 teams in the ORV category.

I was going to ask the same thing

Didn't there used to be some nutjob who tracked stuff like that?  Whatever happened to him, I wonder? 

Through the end of the 07-08 season, the lowest number of teams to receive votes (in the men's poll) was 38, a few times.  I'll leave it to someone else to see if 33 was reached last season or this season (I'm too lazy to do it myself), but I'd doubt it. 

During the 08-09 season, the lowest number of teams to receive votes was week 12  with 38 teams. This year was last week, which set a record with 37 and of course this week with 33, which is the new record.

[gizmo]

"But I've got a huge problem with St. Norbert at #9.  Who have they beaten?  Well, everybody they've played except for Northwestern.  Now, if this was the Big T1E1N squad we're talking about, then that's respectable... but it's the UMAC team.  And it was at home.  Yes, they're the best UMAC team, but that isn't saying a whole lot.  The UMAC is on the bottom at Massey.  And Northwestern is rated # 121 in Massey.  Now, SNC is #15, and I guess I'm OK with that to a point... (I mean, they HAVE beaten everybody else they've played...)  But really, who is that?  Per KnightSlappy's RPI rankings, they've got the 74th highest rated RPI...  but their OWP is .414 and their OOWP is .540.  Now, more cannot be asked of them than to beat the teams they play... but if they keep playing teams that aren't good, and the teams above them who ARE playing tough teams lose, then the old St. Peter Principle is in action again (I'm going to use it til it gets old GS!).  It is absolutely possible that they very well may be the #15 team in the country... but how do we know unless they are tested by other top teams?  There should be a way to kind of cap them. 

I think part of the problem is that, unless you really take a look at a team like St. Norbert, it's hard to compare them to other teams that more may be more about in terms of who they've played.  The victories against Oshkosh, Elmhurst, and Chicago would have looked great last year or two years ago... But these three teams are .500 at best this year thus far.  They really don't have an impressive victory."

I think that you do have to look at St. Norbert a little closer. They are 16-1 with a few things to keep in mind. They have won games with their leading scorer out against Illinois College, which beat a D1 team in SIU Edwardsville this year, and other games. Granted thats a pretty weak team but its D1. IC also gave Illinois Wesleyan a game earlier this year. Thier PG battled an injury and they made major lineup changes mid-way through the year. When you have as good a defense as anyone in the country, you can play with anyone in the country.

Your right they don't play the best teams, but I'm confident they could give even the Pointers a game

[AO]

"But I've got a huge problem with St. Norbert at #9.  Who have they beaten?  Well, everybody they've played except for Northwestern.  Now, if this was the Big T1E1N squad we're talking about, then that's respectable... but it's the UMAC team.  And it was at home.  Yes, they're the best UMAC team, but that isn't saying a whole lot.  The UMAC is on the bottom at Massey.  And Northwestern is rated # 121 in Massey.  Now, SNC is #15, and I guess I'm OK with that to a point... (I mean, they HAVE beaten everybody else they've played...)  But really, who is that?  Per KnightSlappy's RPI rankings, they've got the 74th highest rated RPI...  but their OWP is .414 and their OOWP is .540.  Now, more cannot be asked of them than to beat the teams they play... but if they keep playing teams that aren't good, and the teams above them who ARE playing tough teams lose, then the old St. Peter Principle is in action again (I'm going to use it til it gets old GS!).  It is absolutely possible that they very well may be the #15 team in the country... but how do we know unless they are tested by other top teams?  There should be a way to kind of cap them.  

I think part of the problem is that, unless you really take a look at a team like St. Norbert, it's hard to compare them to other teams that more may be more about in terms of who they've played.  The victories against Oshkosh, Elmhurst, and Chicago would have looked great last year or two years ago... But these three teams are .500 at best this year thus far.  They really don't have an impressive victory."

I think that you do have to look at St. Norbert a little closer. They are 16-1 with a few things to keep in mind. They have won games with their leading scorer out against Illinois College, which beat a D1 team in SIU Edwardsville this year, and other games. Granted thats a pretty weak team but its D1. IC also gave Illinois Wesleyan a game earlier this year. Thier PG battled an injury and they made major lineup changes mid-way through the year. When you have as good a defense as anyone in the country, you can play with anyone in the country.

Your right they don't play the best teams, but I'm confident they could give even the Pointers a game

I'm a believer that in-season rankings should reflect the results of games that have already been played, not hypothetical games.  St. Norberts has one loss, so they should be easily be ahead of a team like 4 loss Randolph Macon.   They didn't duck anybody with their schedule and deserve to be rewarded.

In defense of the loss to my squad (Northwestern), I would say there's not a team in d3 that Northwestern wouldn't be able to beat on a good night.   D3 hoops doesn't have the unstoppable forces that d3 football has in Mount Union and Whitewater.  

If St. Norbert's wins out, they are certainly deserving of hosting a few playoff games.

[Hugenerd]

"But I've got a huge problem with St. Norbert at #9.  Who have they beaten?  Well, everybody they've played except for Northwestern.  Now, if this was the Big T1E1N squad we're talking about, then that's respectable... but it's the UMAC team.  And it was at home.  Yes, they're the best UMAC team, but that isn't saying a whole lot.  The UMAC is on the bottom at Massey.  And Northwestern is rated # 121 in Massey.  Now, SNC is #15, and I guess I'm OK with that to a point... (I mean, they HAVE beaten everybody else they've played...)  But really, who is that?  Per KnightSlappy's RPI rankings, they've got the 74th highest rated RPI...  but their OWP is .414 and their OOWP is .540.  Now, more cannot be asked of them than to beat the teams they play... but if they keep playing teams that aren't good, and the teams above them who ARE playing tough teams lose, then the old St. Peter Principle is in action again (I'm going to use it til it gets old GS!).  It is absolutely possible that they very well may be the #15 team in the country... but how do we know unless they are tested by other top teams?  There should be a way to kind of cap them. 

I think part of the problem is that, unless you really take a look at a team like St. Norbert, it's hard to compare them to other teams that more may be more about in terms of who they've played.  The victories against Oshkosh, Elmhurst, and Chicago would have looked great last year or two years ago... But these three teams are .500 at best this year thus far.  They really don't have an impressive victory."

I think that you do have to look at St. Norbert a little closer. They are 16-1 with a few things to keep in mind. They have won games with their leading scorer out against Illinois College, which beat a D1 team in SIU Edwardsville this year, and other games. Granted thats a pretty weak team but its D1. IC also gave Illinois Wesleyan a game earlier this year. Thier PG battled an injury and they made major lineup changes mid-way through the year. When you have as good a defense as anyone in the country, you can play with anyone in the country.

Your right they don't play the best teams, but I'm confident they could give even the Pointers a game

No D3 team has beaten a D1 team this year in a game that counted.  See the D3 vs. board. 

Also, giving a team a game doesnt mean a thing, let alone losing by 11.  Also, the last time I checked IWU isnt ranked anymore and IC is 9-7.  I doubt any voters consider IC a signature win when voting St. Norbert in the top 10. I am not saying that St. Norbert shouldnt be ranked where they are, just that the argument you are presenting is not a strong one. 

[Titan Q]

Also, giving a team a game doesnt mean a thing, let alone losing by 11. 

IWU @ Illinois College wasn't all that close really...

http://www.iwusports.com/custompages/MBB/MBB2010/HTML/1215iwu.htm

[sac]

"But I've got a huge problem with St. Norbert at #9.  Who have they beaten?  Well, everybody they've played except for Northwestern.  Now, if this was the Big T1E1N squad we're talking about, then that's respectable... but it's the UMAC team.  And it was at home.  Yes, they're the best UMAC team, but that isn't saying a whole lot.  The UMAC is on the bottom at Massey.  And Northwestern is rated # 121 in Massey.  Now, SNC is #15, and I guess I'm OK with that to a point... (I mean, they HAVE beaten everybody else they've played...)  But really, who is that?  Per KnightSlappy's RPI rankings, they've got the 74th highest rated RPI...  but their OWP is .414 and their OOWP is .540.  Now, more cannot be asked of them than to beat the teams they play... but if they keep playing teams that aren't good, and the teams above them who ARE playing tough teams lose, then the old St. Peter Principle is in action again (I'm going to use it til it gets old GS!).  It is absolutely possible that they very well may be the #15 team in the country... but how do we know unless they are tested by other top teams?  There should be a way to kind of cap them. 

#121 in Massey is in the top 30% of D3 teams............#126 Transylvania beat #8 Washington-St. Louis............it happens.

[dc_has_been]

"But I've got a huge problem with St. Norbert at #9.  Who have they beaten?  Well, everybody they've played except for Northwestern.  Now, if this was the Big T1E1N squad we're talking about, then that's respectable... but it's the UMAC team.  And it was at home.  Yes, they're the best UMAC team, but that isn't saying a whole lot.  The UMAC is on the bottom at Massey.  And Northwestern is rated # 121 in Massey.  Now, SNC is #15, and I guess I'm OK with that to a point... (I mean, they HAVE beaten everybody else they've played...)  But really, who is that?  Per KnightSlappy's RPI rankings, they've got the 74th highest rated RPI...  but their OWP is .414 and their OOWP is .540.  Now, more cannot be asked of them than to beat the teams they play... but if they keep playing teams that aren't good, and the teams above them who ARE playing tough teams lose, then the old St. Peter Principle is in action again (I'm going to use it til it gets old GS!).  It is absolutely possible that they very well may be the #15 team in the country... but how do we know unless they are tested by other top teams?  There should be a way to kind of cap them. 

#121 in Massey is in the top 30% of D3 teams............#126 Transylvania beat #8 Washington-St. Louis............it happens.

That's why it is hard to gauge teams b/c in bball they play so many games that anything can happen on any given night. 

[John Gleich]

"But I've got a huge problem with St. Norbert at #9.  Who have they beaten?  Well, everybody they've played except for Northwestern.  Now, if this was the Big T1E1N squad we're talking about, then that's respectable... but it's the UMAC team.  And it was at home.  Yes, they're the best UMAC team, but that isn't saying a whole lot.  The UMAC is on the bottom at Massey.  And Northwestern is rated # 121 in Massey.  Now, SNC is #15, and I guess I'm OK with that to a point... (I mean, they HAVE beaten everybody else they've played...)  But really, who is that?  Per KnightSlappy's RPI rankings, they've got the 74th highest rated RPI...  but their OWP is .414 and their OOWP is .540.  Now, more cannot be asked of them than to beat the teams they play... but if they keep playing teams that aren't good, and the teams above them who ARE playing tough teams lose, then the old St. Peter Principle is in action again (I'm going to use it til it gets old GS!).  It is absolutely possible that they very well may be the #15 team in the country... but how do we know unless they are tested by other top teams?  There should be a way to kind of cap them. 

I think part of the problem is that, unless you really take a look at a team like St. Norbert, it's hard to compare them to other teams that more may be more about in terms of who they've played.  The victories against Oshkosh, Elmhurst, and Chicago would have looked great last year or two years ago... But these three teams are .500 at best this year thus far.  They really don't have an impressive victory."

I think that you do have to look at St. Norbert a little closer. They are 16-1 with a few things to keep in mind. They have won games with their leading scorer out against Illinois College, which beat a D1 team in SIU Edwardsville this year, and other games. Granted thats a pretty weak team but its D1. IC also gave Illinois Wesleyan a game earlier this year. Thier PG battled an injury and they made major lineup changes mid-way through the year. When you have as good a defense as anyone in the country, you can play with anyone in the country.

Your right they don't play the best teams, but I'm confident they could give even the Pointers a game

Sac, that original quote was from me from a over two weeks ago.  Those numbers aren't accurate.

Northwestern is now #107 and SNC is now #11.

SNC now has the 47th highest RPI (largely by virtue of the fact that their win% has continued to go up.  Also, their OWP and OOWP have slid closer to .500 as they've gotten further into conference play (which I think will happen for everybody that plays a double round robin).

Gizmo, my assessment still stands, though.  SNC may  have gotten their marquee victory... over Ripon... so now they're 1-1 against teams that have a .680 win %... but is that really all that impressive?  Their OWP is .435, which means they've played teams that average less than a .500 record.  They certainly aren't helped by having to play Knox twice, I'll give you that, but their schedule wasn't helped by average-at-best years by Oshkosh, Chicago, and Elmhurst.  Normally, those would be pretty good wins, and it isn't to say that they've beaten bad teams in those three... but these teams are shadows of past teams who really WERE

As I said before, St. Norbert can't do anything but beat the teams they've played... and they should be rewarded for that (in so much as a ranking is a reward... which is questionable).  But I'm not sure that "not ducking who they've scheduled" is really valid here... and I don't think they've proved themselves to be a top 10 team by beating who they've beaten, especially in the way they've beaten them.  To be sure, they're a bounce or two away from being undefeated... but they also could be 13-4.  How do you differentiate between 1 loss Norberts, Medaille, Guilford, Williams, or William Patterson?  I think we need to look at who they've beaten and other measurables like OWP/OOWP/SOS and Knightslappy's RPI. 

It may be that St Norberts is the best team of those 5.  They may even be the best team in the country.  But we don't have enough evidence against other top teams to say this with any certainty because they've played exactly zero top 25 teams.  In my honest opinion, when you compare them to Whitworth, our West Coast friends have more of a stake at being in the top 10 than St. Norbert.  WW has a win over a top 6 team and a higher OWP/OOWP.  Yes, they've lost one more game, but their 2 losses were in their first 3 games... they've rattled off 16 straight, and only 3 of those W's were by fewer than 10 points.  Margin isn't everything, but it is a rubric in terms of how a team is able to finish out games... and a 20 point victory says a lot more than a win in overtime.

I don't think St. Norbert is a bad team.  I think they're a good team.  I just don't think that they're a really great team yet.  I don't know that they'll play a team who they could prove that to me until the NCAA tournament.  With that being said, though, SNC has their toughest conference challenges coming up... 5 of their last 6 games are against teams in the top half of the conference, though they are helped out by the schedule in that 4 of those games are at home.  They need to protect against a meltdown like last year.  Ironically, at this point last year, they were in the same spot... 16-1, with 6 games remaining.  They lost 4/6 and then in the conference tournament and were done.  I DID think they had good wins last year, against Oshkosh (#4 WIAC) and Platteville (#2 WIAC) and I said as much too... but they self destructed last year.  I hope the same doesn't happen this year because I think they are a good team and should finish strong to make it to the NCAA tournament.  Then your questions about if they're top 10 can really be answered.

Sac, your point about Transy's Massey rating brings up another one for me... Wash U has lost to 126 Transylvania and 36 Brandeis... but now they're ranked ahead of Point, who's only losses are to Whitewater, who's been in the top 7 since week 1 voting and in the top 3 of Massey since those ratings came out.  I don't understand the rationale of punishing a team for a loss to a top 5 team, especially when the games are incredibly close. 

[KnightSlappy]

Sac, your point about Transy's Massey rating brings up another one for me... Wash U has lost to 126 Transylvania and 36 Brandeis... but now they're ranked ahead of Point, who's only losses are to Whitewater, who's been in the top 7 since week 1 voting and in the top 3 of Massey since those ratings came out.  I don't understand the rationale of punishing a team for a loss to a top 5 team, especially when the games are incredibly close. 

At the same time it's difficult (at least it was for me in the Poster's Poll) to rank Point ahead of Whitewater when they are 0-2 head to head.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Sac, your point about Transy's Massey rating brings up another one for me... Wash U has lost to 126 Transylvania and 36 Brandeis... but now they're ranked ahead of Point, who's only losses are to Whitewater, who's been in the top 7 since week 1 voting and in the top 3 of Massey since those ratings came out.  I don't understand the rationale of punishing a team for a loss to a top 5 team, especially when the games are incredibly close. 

At the same time it's difficult (at least it was for me in the Poster's Poll) to rank Point ahead of Whitewater when they are 0-2 head to head.

It may be difficult, but 8 of 10 voters have done so.

As I posted yesterday, sometimes a 'lesser' team owns a 'better' team, for whatever reason.  (And as tight as both games were, to use 'owns' for WW over SP would clearly be hyperbole.)

One example I used: two years ago, IWU went 3-0 against Wheaton.  Despite that, Wheaton got into the tourney and went to the Elite 8; IWU (deservedly) was not even selected.  Would you have trouble ranking Wheaton over IWU?  (I wouldn't, and I have Green blood! )

Head-to-head is obviously important, but it can't be the only factor.

[John Gleich]

As I posted yesterday, sometimes a 'lesser' team owns a 'better' team, for whatever reason.  (And as tight as both games were, to use 'owns' for WW over SP would clearly be hyperbole.)

Yeah, I don't think "owns" is the right word here...

[Ralph Turner]

As I posted yesterday, sometimes a 'lesser' team owns a 'better' team, for whatever reason.  (And as tight as both games were, to use 'owns' for WW over SP would clearly be hyperbole.)

Yeah, I don't think "owns" is the right word here...

Point will be happy if they always win the last meeting of the season with UWW. 

[Greek Tragedy]

Though Whitewater has a 2-0 record against Point, Whitewater has lost to ranked Whitworth, unranked Eau Claire and unranked Stout at home.  They beat two top-5 ranked teams, one as a #1 (Stevens Point). Then you can look at Point, lost to two top-5 ranked teams (Whitewater) as their only losses... they also beat #2 at the time St. Thomas.