Top 25 talk

[scottiedoug]

I also am sorry Rust and Maryville are not playing...first time in a long time. And I do not know what the reasons are.  It would help people evaluate both teams.  Incidentally, it is my understanding that a Rust player from last year has transferred to Maryville.  Maybe either he wanted to play for a winner or thought he could not make Rust's team this year!

[RustCollege]

Hoop Fan if you take a real look you would know some teams just dont want to play rust i dont know y but really i do know y but im not gon get into that maryville will be play next yr i wish dis yr cuz a team like that will let us know how good we r

[scottiedoug]

I think many of us know why many schools do not want to play Rust, especially at their gym.  It is an unsettling experience for some folks.

[wilburt]

I think many of us know why many schools do not want to play Rust, especially at their gym.  It is an unsettling experience for some folks.

Rust College forget NCAA Division III and join the NAIA and its Gulf Coast Athletic Conference! 
Rust still plays Fisk twice this season and I understand that one of Rust's players transferred to Fisk this summer.

I wish Rust the best this upcoming season!

[scottiedoug]

I had Wilburt figured for a NCAA D3 kind of guy, until Fisk went NAIA.  Athletic scholarships and fewer requirements for the number and breadth of sports offered do not seem to fit Wilburt's demonstrated belief in the concept of student athletes and liberal arts education. 

Do I have it wrong, my friend? 

[hopefan]

Scottiedoug... maybe I Should consider that trip down from St Louis to see Webster at Rust.... It sounds like a D3 venue worth experiencing!!!!  And I say that in all truthfulness... D3hoops is my favorite thing... I'd really like to see another in the variety of game situations in D3 that a team experiences at Rust....

[RustCollege]

I think many of us know why many schools do not want to play Rust, especially at their gym.  It is an unsettling experience for some folks.

Now that is not true we a good fan base who r down with rust 100% just ask Maryville an millsap who play rust they act like any other fan base at any other school Like maryville, BSC,and etc so what r you talkin about Scottiedoug tell me what is so unsettling the fans just love rust when rust is winning thats all

[RustCollege]

you should come we will welcome you with open arm

[wilburt]

I had Wilburt figured for a NCAA D3 kind of guy, until Fisk went NAIA.  Athletic scholarships and fewer requirements for the number and breadth of sports offered do not seem to fit Wilburt's demonstrated belief in the concept of student athletes and liberal arts education. 

Do I have it wrong, my friend? 

One has to move with the times, my friend.  I was a D3 athlete back in the 1980s when there truly was a concept of student-athletes in the d3.  Back then, one didn't have schools making strategic moves (sometimes unethical) to position themselves for super conferences like they do now.  One didn't dodge opponents or ostracize certain schools like they do now.  One didn't have schools circumventing the non-athletic scholarship rules, by giving "leadership scholarships" and the like.  One generally didn't have approximately one half of the student body as athletes as some current d3 schools do now.  I could go on and on, but this d3 is not your fathers d3!

[hopefan]

Wilburt... just because it happens some places doesn't mean it's the norm.....  When I see the Wash U's and Amherst's and Williams's and Hope's and Calvin's and Wheatons and IWUs  experiencing success on the national level, and the lower level SLIAC having a blast because the conference is level competition from top to bottom and the games are so much fun to watch, my love of D3 remains as strong as ever....   there are rule benders everywhere, and granted the playing field isn't quite level when the State schools can charge a twentieth of what the private's do, but all in all, it's the best, cleanest, fairest competition in Hoops.....    I firmly believe the Student-Athlete concept is still strong....

[Pat Coleman]

One didn't have schools circumventing the non-athletic scholarship rules, by giving "leadership scholarships" and the like.

I'm going to have to call bull**** right here. There's no way it was less prevalent in the 1980s, without regulation, than it is now WITH regulation.

[Gregory Sager]

I think many of us know why many schools do not want to play Rust, especially at their gym.  It is an unsettling experience for some folks.

Rust College forget NCAA Division III and join the NAIA and its Gulf Coast Athletic Conference! 
Rust still plays Fisk twice this season and I understand that one of Rust's players transferred to Fisk this summer.

I wish Rust the best this upcoming season!

Rust's membership in D3 goes back all the way to the division's origin, or at least very close to it. Clearly, Rust College believes in D3's values and mission.

I had Wilburt figured for a NCAA D3 kind of guy, until Fisk went NAIA.  Athletic scholarships and fewer requirements for the number and breadth of sports offered do not seem to fit Wilburt's demonstrated belief in the concept of student athletes and liberal arts education. 

Do I have it wrong, my friend? 

One has to move with the times, my friend.  I was a D3 athlete back in the 1980s when there truly was a concept of student-athletes in the d3.  Back then, one didn't have schools making strategic moves (sometimes unethical) to position themselves for super conferences like they do now.

I think that you're confusing the NCAA's D1 and D3, Wilburt, because nobody's maneuvering to construct any superconferences or angling to get better television deals on this level.

One didn't dodge opponents or ostracize certain schools like they do now.

Dodging opponents has gone on in every level of college basketball since the days of leather kneepads and silk short-shorts with belts. It doesn't have anything to do with D3, or NAIA, or anything else. Remember, it's the schools themselves that set their schedules, not the NCAA office in Indianapolis or the NAIA office in Kansas City.

As for "ostracizing schools," I have no idea what you mean by that. Yeah, life is tough as an independent -- particularly when you're an independent that isn't in a geographically favorable position to join a league -- but it's hardly the same thing as ostracism, which implies deliberate intent (and malicious intent, at that).

One didn't have schools circumventing the non-athletic scholarship rules, by giving "leadership scholarships" and the like.

This is an interesting assertion, since the NAIA is notorious for being more lax in terms of both rules and enforcement than is the NCAA.

One generally didn't have approximately one half of the student body as athletes as some current d3 schools do now.

That's the whole point of D3, Wilburt: Student participation. The more students that are participating in intercollegiate sports, the more the school is consonant with D3's stated mission of encouraging widespread student involvement in athletics.

I could go on and on, but this d3 is not your fathers d3!

Sounds to me like there's some sour grapes at work here, or a need to shine the apple on Fisk's decision to move from D3 to NAIA, or both.

I'm not badmouthing Fisk's decision, as I'm sure that the school's administrators did what they felt was best for the school. But what's good for Fisk isn't necessarily what''s good for Rust.

[wilburt]

One didn't have schools circumventing the non-athletic scholarship rules, by giving "leadership scholarships" and the like.

I'm going to have to call bull**** right here. There's no way it was less prevalent in the 1980s, without regulation, than it is now WITH regulation.

Okay whatever Pat!!!  I forgot when you were named the President of the NCAA Division III? 

[wilburt]

Reply to Gregory Sager in part:

1.  Fisk was an original member of the NCAA Division III back in 1974 along with Rust and LeMoyne Owen.
2.  Nobody mentioned any television deals but certain D3 schools in recent years were CLEARLY angling for  superconferences in D3 to keep (or acquire) automatic bids.  Get your head out of the sand.
3.  No sour grapes here and no need to shine the apple on Fisk's move to the NAIA. But what's good for Fisk may more than likely be good for Rust more than anyone else on this board cares to thinks!  

Again I wish Rust the best this upcoming season, and I look forward to the games with Fisk this season!  I wish you the best as well Gregory Sager!  This is very amusing to me. It seems that whenever I post on the d3hoops board I have a following of folks that appear to take a certain amount of glee in taking issue with my opinions and assertions and further glee in knocking down my points.   Perhaps this may be done to shine the apple on the glorious Division III  , or I may be the resident whipping boy, who knows, but I am sure that the GSAC discussions are very dull without my input in recent months!

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

One didn't have schools circumventing the non-athletic scholarship rules, by giving "leadership scholarships" and the like.  One generally didn't have approximately one half of the student body as athletes as some current d3 schools do now.

I can't speak for every school, obviously, but I know of quite a few who did offer those "leadership" scholarships in the 80's and 90's who no longer do.  In my experience the move has most definitely been in the other direction.

Again, it could just be my frame of reference.  The NAIA schools with which I'm most familiar do horribly unethical things with their athletic departments and scholarship athletes - although I'm not about to make assumptions across the board.