Top 25 talk

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared -- Midweek report

I think I have most of the bugs ironed out, but let me know if you see any problems ...

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	622	UW-Stevens Point	4-0	def. UW-Stout, 79-68; 12/04 at #41 UW-River Falls
#2	587	Illinois Wesleyan	6-0	12/04 vs. Chicago
#3	585	Eastern Mennonite	6-0	def. Hampden-Sydney, 79-63; 12/04 vs. #7 Randolph-Macon
#4	535	Wooster	5-0	def. Hiram, 74-60; 12/04 vs. Denison
#5	493	Williams	5-0	def. RPI, 89-73; 12/02 vs. St. Joseph's (Vt.); 12/04 at Vassar
#6	467	Middlebury	5-0	def. Castleton State, 66-44; 12/04 at Union
#7	448	Randolph-Macon	4-2	LOST to #9 Virginia Wesleyan, 57-59; 12/04 at #3 Eastern Mennonite
#8	428	St. Norbert	3-0	12/03 vs. Grinnell; 12/04 vs. Monmouth
#9	416	Virginia Wesleyan	7-0	def. #7 Randolph-Macon, 59-57; 12/04 vs. Emory and Henry; 12/06 vs. Apprentice School
#10	380	Whitworth	4-0	12/03 at #47 Lewis and Clark; 12/04 at Linfield
#11	366	St. Thomas	5-0	def. Macalester, 72-63; 12/04 at Bethel; 12/06 at Augsburg
#12	321	Augustana	4-0	def. Monmouth, 66-59
#13	317	Wabash	7-0	def. #32 DePauw, 57-40; 12/04 at Hiram
#14	290	St. Mary's (Md.)	4-1	def. #25 Christopher Newport, 86-67; 12/04 at Stevenson; 12/06 at Citadel
#15	240	Franklin and Marshall	4-1	def. Ursinus, 78-69; 12/03 vs. T#49 Claremont-Mudd-Scripps
#16	195	John Carroll	4-1	12/04 at #36 Capital
#17	181	Anderson	2-2	LOST at Defiance, 67-72; 12/04 at Mount St. Joseph
#18	157	Carthage	3-2	12/03 vs. T#49 Hope; 12/04 vs. Calvin
#19	145	Brandeis	5-0	def. Clark, 67-65; 12/02 vs. Framingham State; 12/04 at Babson; 12/05 vs. Salem State or Tufts
#20	107	MIT	4-1	def. Emerson, 70-56; 12/02 vs. Newbury; 12/04 at Gordon
#21	93	Wheaton (Ill.)	4-1	def. Chicago, 95-67; 12/03 vs. Calvin; 12/04 vs. T#49 Hope
#22	90	Ramapo	5-0	def. Rowan, 89-72; 12/03 vs. Southern Va.; 12/04 at TBA
#23	87	Amherst	4-0	def. Lasell, 108-68; 12/03 vs. Westfield State; 12/04 vs. Elms
#24	65	DeSales	4-1	LOST at #48 Manhattanville, 55-67; 12/04 vs. Delaware Valley
#25	61	Christopher Newport	4-2	LOST at #14 St. Mary's (Md.), 67-86

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	57	Plattsburgh State	4-1	def. St. Lawrence, 62-58; 12/03 vs. New Paltz State; 12/04 vs. Oneonta State
#27	51	Texas-Dallas	3-1	12/02 at Hardin-Simmons; 12/04 at McMurry
#28	45	WPI	4-1	def. Curry, 76-56; 12/02 vs. Lasell
#29	42	Emory	5-0	12/04 vs. Methodist
#30	31	Chapman	3-1	12/02 vs. American Sports Univ; 12/03 at TBA; 12/04 at TBA
#31	28	New York University	4-0	def. Merchant Marine, 56-53; 12/04 vs. Polytechnic
#32	24	DePauw	4-1	LOST to #13 Wabash, 40-57; 12/03 vs. Birmingham-Southern; 12/05 vs. Rhodes
#33	21	Catholic	5-0	def. Carnegie Mellon, 52-50; 12/04 at Goucher
T#34	20	Rhode Island College	4-1	def. Johnson and Wales, 79-70; 12/04 vs. Eastern Connecticut
T#34	20	UW-Whitewater	3-1	def. UW-La Crosse, 73-60; 12/04 at UW-Stout
#36	17	Capital	4-1	LOST to Ohio Wesleyan, 57-67; 12/04 vs. #16 John Carroll
#37	14	Colorado College	3-2	LOST at Regis (Colo.), 57-71; 12/03 at Hendrix; 12/05 at Millsaps
#38	12	Western Connecticut	5-1	def. Trinity (Conn.), 73-62; 12/04 vs. Southern Maine
T#39	9	Guilford	4-2	def. North Carolina Wesleyan, 64-47; 12/04 at Bridgewater (Va.)
T#39	9	Ripon	2-1	12/03 vs. Knox; 12/04 vs. Grinnell
#41	8	UW-River Falls	5-1	def. UW-Superior, 62-58; 12/04 vs. #1 UW-Stevens Point
T#42	7	Ferrum	5-0	12/06 vs. Washington and Lee
T#42	7	Manchester	3-1	def. Earlham, 72-63; 12/04 at Hanover
T#44	6	Cabrini	2-1	12/02 vs. Gwynedd-Mercy; 12/04 at Rosemont
T#44	6	Centre	3-1	12/03 vs. Rhodes; 12/05 vs. Birmingham-Southern
T#44	6	Gettysburg	4-1	def. Johns Hopkins, 73-57; 12/04 at Haverford
#47	3	Lewis and Clark	4-0	12/03 vs. #10 Whitworth; 12/04 vs. Whitman
#48	2	Manhattanville	5-1	def. #24 DeSales, 67-55; 12/04 at King's
T#49	1	Becker	4-1	def. Anna Maria, 81-76; 12/02 vs. Fitchburg State
T#49	1	Bowdoin	3-1	LOST to Southern Maine, 68-70; 12/04 at Bates
T#49	1	Claremont-Mudd-Scripps	2-1	12/03 at #15 Franklin and Marshall; 12/04 at Washington U.
T#49	1	Hope	1-2	12/03 at #18 Carthage; 12/04 at #21 Wheaton (Ill.)

[Greek Tragedy]

Great work!

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Per my previous comment about Virginia Wesleyan... they go out and beat Randolph-Macon... I guess I have a better feeling where I put them on my bracket... BUT could the losses for Top 25 teams stop already? It makes it tough on Mondays!

[ronk]

dmac,
  What time is hoopsville on tonite? guests?

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

ronk - won't be hitting the air tonight... we are a bit delayed due to so much going on not only in my life but with the rest of the D3Sports networks... however, stay tuned for some mini-shows between now and the new year and then the live version returning shortly after the new year (unless we change our minds, again!).

Thanks for your patience with us...

[oldchap]

That's better than sounding like an invertebrate homer. As we all know from your classic battles with OxyBob, you certainly have a spine!

Yeah... I don't know what it is this year. Oxybob and I haven't sparred yet. We must be getting old... 

[Greek Tragedy]

BUT could the losses for Top 25 teams stop already? It makes it tough on Mondays!

Though fun for the fans and stuff, preseason Top 25 polls are ridiculous.  How can a committee figure out the Top 25 without any games played?  It usually seems like it's just reputation.  I think starting the poll at the beginning of the year is the best bet.  I know it will never happen, but trying to guess your way through for a semester is what happens! 

[John Gleich]

Ken Pomeroy (noted statistician) would disagree that pre-season polls aren't worth anything... LINK

The preseason (D-I) AP #1 team has won the National Championship 6 times in the last 21 years, versus just 3 times that the #1 team won going into the tournament. 

The archives of past top 25's haven't migrated yet (at least not that I have seen) to see how this plays out in D-III... but it's interesting to think about, none the less.

[David Collinge]

Ken Pomeroy (noted statistician) would disagree that pre-season polls aren't worth anything... LINK

The preseason (D-I) AP #1 team has won the National Championship 6 times in the last 21 years, versus just 3 times that the #1 team won going into the tournament.  

The archives of past top 25's haven't migrated yet (at least not that I have seen) to see how this plays out in D-III... but it's interesting to think about, none the less.

Pollsters at the D1 level have a *LOT* more information to go on in the preseason than our pollsters do.  They know everything about the players, their injury and academic status, as well as the incoming frosh.  They've actually seen all of the teams under consideration play games, in person or on TV, and have a good feel from that how returnees will play together.  It's apples and oranges to the information black hole that is D3.

I think I did some kind of analysis some years back about how the preseason poll fared at the end of the year.  I don't feel like digging though the 399 back pages of this room to find it (if it's even still there), but I think its conclusion was that it's surprising how well the preseason poll has fared.  We all remember the #2 UW-Oshkoshes because errors of that magnitude really stand out against the general level of competence shown in the preseason poll.

[GuyFormerlyPSBBG]

I know at times I have voiced my concerns of the D3 top 25 polls.  However, I trust the validity of them more than the D1 polls.  (I don't understand why UNC was ranked #9 preseason.  Often I think the polls at that level are driven by TV ratings.  Clearly not the case at the D3 level)


I am glad to see the south represented more in the d3 top 25.  I hope the trend continues to migrate to the women's side as well.  I think the region is undervalued.

[John Gleich]

Ken Pomeroy (noted statistician) would disagree that pre-season polls aren't worth anything... LINK

The preseason (D-I) AP #1 team has won the National Championship 6 times in the last 21 years, versus just 3 times that the #1 team won going into the tournament.  

The archives of past top 25's haven't migrated yet (at least not that I have seen) to see how this plays out in D-III... but it's interesting to think about, none the less.

Pollsters at the D1 level have a *LOT* more information to go on in the preseason than our pollsters do.  They know everything about the players, their injury and academic status, as well as the incoming frosh.  They've actually seen all of the teams under consideration play games, in person or on TV, and have a good feel from that how returnees will play together.  It's apples and oranges to the information black hole that is D3.

I think I did some kind of analysis some years back about how the preseason poll fared at the end of the year.  I don't feel like digging though the 399 back pages of this room to find it (if it's even still there), but I think its conclusion was that it's surprising how well the preseason poll has fared.  We all remember the #2 UW-Oshkoshes because errors of that magnitude really stand out against the general level of competence shown in the preseason poll.

Yeah, it seemed like we had the curse of the #2 rating there for a few years...

To be honest, I was looking for a situation to share that link when I first saw it a few weeks ago... I was pretty surprised by what it said!

And I wholeheartedly agree with the difficulties that our pollsters have...  Not only is there far less exposure, there are more teams!

[nwhoops1903]

10th-ranked Whitworth wins 77-60 at #47 Lewis & Clark in the Northwest Conference men's basketball opener on Friday night at LC.

http://www.whitworth.edu/Athletics/Teams/BasketballMen/Releases/10_11/L&C1.htm

[GuyFormerlyPSBBG]

Interesting to know, I think the PG is probably the most important position on the court, How many of these preseason top 25 teams replaced their starting PG this season, and have lost already?

[David Collinge]

Interesting to know, I think the PG is probably the most important position on the court, How many of these preseason top 25 teams replaced their starting PG this season, and have lost already?

Wooster did, and hasn't.

[Greek Tragedy]

Stevens Point had a freshman point guard last year and they won the National Championship.  Of course, they had about 5 other guys that could bring the ball up court as well!