Top 25 talk

[Pat Coleman]

Someone is spoofing URLs.

It's about to be posted to the other places, though, no biggie.

[Hugenerd]

Someone is spoofing URLs.

It's about to be posted to the other places, though, no biggie.

Same trick works for the NCAA site also.  Thats how I usually found the NCAA rankings last season before they were officially linked from the rankings page.

[Pat Coleman]

Same here.

But I know from that experience not to create that final URL until I'm ready to post it.

[Hugenerd]

Same here.

But I know from that experience not to create that final URL until I'm ready to post it.

You are safe then, my hacking days are behind me.

[nwhoops1903]

So does anyone think any of the top 3 from last week deserve to fall from the top 10?

...
Point lost on the road to River Falls, who was receiving votes and is 6-1 on the year, with their lone loss to #11 St. Thomas.
IWU lost at home to Chicago, who is 2-4.
Eastern Mennonite lost at home to #7 Randolph Macon who is 5-2.

I think they'll definitely stay in the top 10.  They may all stay in the top 5.  Heck, Point may even stay #1. 

+1 for the nice reply to my question Point.

I do find it odd that W-SP still recvd 1st place votes.  This says to me some voters are willing to ignore a loss because they think, feel, believe that a team is the best.  Doesn't seem all that rational or impartial.  Had they lost to the #2 team would they still get those votes?  Of course not.  But then, 1st place votes were all over the place so voters have many opinions about the top spot and early on that seems okay to me, just getting votes after a loss?  Don't know about that.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I'd rather have voters willing to stick with the team they think is best despite a loss than those who automatically choose a new team when the previous one loses.

[wally_wabash]

I'd rather have voters willing to stick with the team they think is best despite a loss than those who automatically choose a new team when the previous one loses.

That's a pretty boring weekly poll if voters ignore things like wins and losses. 

[David Collinge]

I doubt that any of the voters who thought UW-SP was #1 last week expected the Pointers to complete an undefeated season.  They were projected at #1 on the strength of their assets, assets which, if they add up to a 22-3 record, would comprise the resume of a #1 team.  They lost a tough road game to a good team, and while you can't say it was "expected," and you can't say it was entirely "excusable," I don't think you can say it was "damning."  If I were an SP voter, I could easily see sticking with my dog for the time being.

[ScotsFan]

I can see voters sticking with them... eventually, that is.  IMO, it just seems like you are rewarding a team for losing by keeping them #1.  Now, if threre wasn't anyone else that truly warranted jumping UW-SP, then by all means keep them #1.  But, there were two pretty good teams that are still undefeated on the season waiting in the wings and I think the voters got it right by placing Wooster and Williams ahead of UW-SP for now.

[Gregory Sager]

I can see voters sticking with them... eventually, that is.  IMO, it just seems like you are rewarding a team for losing by keeping them #1.  Now, if threre wasn't anyone else that truly warranted jumping UW-SP, then by all means keep them #1.  But, there were two pretty good teams that are still undefeated on the season waiting in the wings and I think the voters got it right by placing Wooster and Williams ahead of UW-SP for now.

Your argument appears to be a little self-serving, ScotsFan. I'm struck by the counter-argument put forward on the NCAC board by your fellow Wooster fan, kiltedbryan, that perhaps the Scots really aren't worthy of a #1 ranking at the moment:

But only a fool would overlook the Bishops, the way they've been playing of late.

Not to diminish OWU in any way or the challenge that Wooster will face down at the Branch on Saturday, but I'm not ready to proclaim that OWU is all the way back just yet after a modest two game winning streak.  Yes, their win at Cap was a nice win, but other than that win, what has OWU done to make me think they are playing up to the expectations we had for them coming into the season?  A beatdown of Oberlin?  Oberlin is a BAD basketball team.  The Yeomen just gave Kzoo their first win of the season and did so losing by 21 freaking points?! 

Let me see how the Bishops come out and play tonight in Crawfordsville before I start to buy into the notion that OWU's rough start was just a bump in the road...

SF- I agree with your point that OWU-Wabash is a game to watch.  But there's also a big part of me that wants to wait until I see Wooster beat someone like OWU (and obviously, Allegheny) before I start to feel that their heady ranking on paper is justified by their performance on the hardwood.

I'll qualify that by saying that most of the reason I'm not sure I'm ready to buy the idea that the Scots are indisputably a Top 10 (much less #1) team right now is because I don't think the Scots have had a chance in their first six games to prove themselves against any really good competition. 

I think Wooster has artificially reached #1 because of losses in front of them rather than results-to-date.  Even a "good" (as opposed to a "national championship contending caliber") Wooster team should be 6-0 at this point, based on who it has played.  Heck, Wabash has a better claim on #1 than Wooster does based on season activity-to-date, having thoroughly beaten a very good team at home, then also beating its quality arch-rival on the road in the young season.  (And I suspect the voter that gave them the #1 vote used some similar logic.)

OWU could even be the best team that the Scots have faced so far this year.  And like I said, it's a tough economy and the Scots could use some resume-building.  In that sense, I think I'll know far more about how this Wooster squad compares after its next 5 games (Allegheny, OWU, Anderson, John Carroll & Wilmington).  Go 5-0 or maybe even 4-1 and I think the Scots will have established a credible Top 10/#1 resume.  Even better, go 8-0 or 7-1 over the next 8, which would include games against two more good opponents in Baruch and Wabash (I don't know anything about William Carey).

I'm agnostic on the subject of Wooster and its worthiness to be the current top dog, but I do like the idea of a couple of Scots fans mixing it up with a little point/counterpoint.

[Titan Q]

I can see voters sticking with them... eventually, that is.  IMO, it just seems like you are rewarding a team for losing by keeping them #1.  

I have never viewed the poll as a reward/punishment thing at all.  From reading the boards over the years I know a lot of people do see it that way.

To me, as a voter you are simply asked to list the teams in order, from who you feel is the best to 25th best.  You are not asked to "reward" (or "punish").  Great teams lose games...it happens every year.  I think one can still make a very strong case for Stevens Point as the #1 team.

(I should add that I moved from UW-SP to Virginia Wesleyan this week.  At this point, it is just so hard to evaluate teams based on 2010-11 data...there just is not enough of it yet.)

[John Gleich]

I think it kind of begs the question of what the top 25 is really proposing...

Is it saying that the #1 team has a better body of work than the #2 team (and by inference, everybody else)?

If so, then a loss might not drop a team out of the top spot.

Is it saying that the team has had a generally comperable performance to date of teams around it... and has just had a better (or worse) week, so they move up or down in the poll?

UWSP went from 622 poll points to 512.  That's 110 points, equivalent to more than 4 places on average.  It was good enough for 4th, but in the "perfect" poll (#1 team has all of the first place votes, #2 has all of the second place votes, etc) 512 would be just a smidge closer to 6th than 5th.  And because we know that 3 voters kept them at #1, there are voters who dropped them even farther than that.

When you contrast that to EMU and IWU, there are a few different possibilities.

IWU went from 2nd (587 points, avg 2.52) to 10th (415 points, avg 9.4) losing 172 points.  They dropped an average of 6.88 slots on each ballot.  EMU went from 3rd (585, avg 2.6) to 8th (444, avg 8.24) losing 141 points.  They dropped an average of 5.64 slots on each ballot. 

What that says is one of two things.  The IWU loss to Chicago was "worse" than the EMU loss to Randy Mac, which was "worse" than the SP loss to River Falls.

I think that's to be expected... Chicago was 1-4 coming into the IWU game and it was at the Shirk Center, Randy Mac was a top 10 team, but it was on Royals' home floor, while SP's loss was on the road at River Falls.


**Please note... these comments and any I make are not made with purple colored glasses... New for this season, I got the brand new purple-colored LASIX surgery!

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I was one of the #1 voters for UWSP because simply I didn't feel I had any other team worthy of taking my number one vote due to strength of schedule, schedule so far, and who they lost to...

I could not give a #1 vote to Wooster simply because I am not even comfortable with them even at #2 on my ballot. I keep looking at their schedule and try and figure out how their results warrant a #1 vote. But they aren't the only ones.

Despite Titan Q's nod to VWC, I can't give them a vote, either. I have seen or know some of the teams they have played against and their start while impressive at unbeaten, isn't impressing me to put them #1 - I even have them uncomfortably high (I think #5).

There is also other teams I have high that I would rather have say around #3-#10 I really wish I could start lower... There just isn't any dominating teams right now in my opinion so I am struggling early on to put the top teams together. Since I am uncomfortable with many of the teams who are unbeaten right now (really, Wabash might be the only one that is impressive, but they have more to prove to me) and I don't think the loss to UWRF was essentially a "bad" one to a team that is playing very well and on the road... I keep my vote with UWSP.

Remember, things change week to week (which is making things very hard this season) and if teams continue to impress and UWSP shows signs of not being a #1 team - I then reserve that right to change my vote.

[nwhoops1903]

Had UWSP lost to a D1 or something big, then no.  They could very well remain in a legitimate position to collect #1 votes.  Wasn't what happened.  Wins and losses matter more than what we believe or feel.  I guarantee many WIAC teams will now think they can beat SP more than they did 5 days ago.  This loss changes alot of things in that conference, I am sure.  It should also change the poll (it did) in ALL voters minds as well.   Btw, I am not anti UWSP.  This isnt about SP or a power conference.

Not being high on anyone else or impressed with their results this early in season is one way to stick with a dog.  Hope it hunts in March.

On another thought, I think early on it is better to have variety in top 10.  If 8 conferences are represented in top 10 spots, I think all of D3 gains.

[Hugenerd]

#23 WPI is playing Harvard pretty tough. 12 point game with 4 minutes to play.