Top 25 talk

[David Collinge]

Forgive me; I assumed the post you quoted was the one you were referring to.  My post said "Whitworth is farthest north as well as farthest west;" I deleted rather than editing it when I added the other information about the other men's teams.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

On an unrelated note, there's a HUGE inter-regional and Conference game tomorrow night at Virginia Wesleyan with Randolph-Macon coming into the Fish Tank to play the Marlins-should be a GREAT game!!Will any of you be attending D-Mac and Pat?ODAC Regular Season and Region 1st place on the line!!

Considering it is mid-week... not going to even be able to get up to Gettysburg for the possible 800th win in F&M's Glenn Robinson's career. Unfortunately, I have to be at work at 5 AM and can't take time off during the very important sweeps months (February being one of them). Will try and watch some of it online... if I can.

Men's: Whitworth west & north, Amherst east, Va. Wesleyan south.
Women's: Pat's guesses are correct: George Fox west & north, Bowdoin east, Trinity south

caveat: I only checked from the end of the 2007-08 season backwards. It's possible there's been some geography busters since then, but none come to mind other than Whitworth.

Well... you need a Mainer to get this right... Husson and Maine Maritime are actually more east then Bowdoin and I think the edge goes to Husson, but barely.
BUT they are not the furthest east... that title goes to the school that is also the furthest north, Maine-Presque Isle.
BUT... I am not taking account any of the Minnesota schools in terms to distance north... Presque Isle is 46-degrees, 40-minutes north, roughly.

By the way - wasn't talking rankings! Just having fun with distance and location... so don't bust on me!

[sac]

Strength of schedule seems to be an issue for some who might question Whitworth's quality.

Massey has:

Whitworth schedule at #24
Amherst schedule at #168
Williams schedule at #70
Middlebury schedule at #137

NWC power conf. at 4th with 4 teams in top 33 of Massey
NE Smalls conf. power at 3rd with 4th team at 99

Conclusion:  Other than playing each other, these three teams from NESCAC haven't played against any serious competition.  That's 4 very tough games on schedule but not much more (#133 Elms for Williams, ME Farmington #310 took Amherst to OT, #117 Plattsburg battled Middlebury, #123 Skidmore, #164 Bates close win at home... ).  WW has 6 tough games plus games won against Massey power 40, 56, & 58. 

9 games vs 4 games?

This conference seems to be a good example of why massey's rating need to be taken with the proper grain of salt.

Massey count's those D3 v D2/D1 exhibitions where the D1/D2 program gets to count it as a real game.  Even though a couple are listed as (ex), they still count in his ratings.

The Northwest Conference has a couple of them

Pacific Lutheran  -- Oct 31 loss to Seattle
George Fox --Nov 6 loss to D2 Western Oregon
Pacific --  Nov. 6 loss to D2 NW Nazarene


Then there are these 2 games, which would give the whole conference a pretty big boost in schedule difficulty.
Willamette --  Nov. 16  loss to D2 W. Washinton
George Fox --Dec 9 loss to D1 Portland State


I'm not saying Whitworth hasn't played a good schedule or tough schedule, I'm just saying I'm not sure using massey's ratings is the right way to demonstrate their strength.   Factoring out the above 3 games probably changes the schedule strength's enough to place Whitworth closer to #70 Williams.

[nwhoops1903]

I'm not saying Whitworth hasn't played a good schedule or tough schedule, I'm just saying I'm not sure using massey's ratings is the right way to demonstrate their strength.   Factoring out the above 3 games probably changes the schedule strength's enough to place Whitworth closer to #70 Williams.

Is there a better way?  Is there a Massey calculator clone that allows for editing of certain games?  Tell me where and I am happy to do the work.  Until then, this is all I can go by and still have a life. 

[KnightSlappy]

Strength of schedule seems to be an issue for some who might question Whitworth's quality.

Massey has:

Whitworth schedule at #24
Amherst schedule at #168
Williams schedule at #70
Middlebury schedule at #137

NWC power conf. at 4th with 4 teams in top 33 of Massey
NE Smalls conf. power at 3rd with 4th team at 99

Conclusion:  Other than playing each other, these three teams from NESCAC haven't played against any serious competition.  That's 4 very tough games on schedule but not much more (#133 Elms for Williams, ME Farmington #310 took Amherst to OT, #117 Plattsburg battled Middlebury, #123 Skidmore, #164 Bates close win at home... ).  WW has 6 tough games plus games won against Massey power 40, 56, & 58. 

9 games vs 4 games?

This conference seems to be a good example of why massey's rating need to be taken with the proper grain of salt.

Massey count's those D3 v D2/D1 exhibitions where the D1/D2 program gets to count it as a real game.  Even though a couple are listed as (ex), they still count in his ratings.

The Northwest Conference has a couple of them

Pacific Lutheran  -- Oct 31 loss to Seattle
George Fox --Nov 6 loss to D2 Western Oregon
Pacific --  Nov. 6 loss to D2 NW Nazarene


Then there are these 2 games, which would give the whole conference a pretty big boost in schedule difficulty.
Willamette --  Nov. 16  loss to D2 W. Washinton
George Fox --Dec 9 loss to D1 Portland State


I'm not saying Whitworth hasn't played a good schedule or tough schedule, I'm just saying I'm not sure using massey's ratings is the right way to demonstrate their strength.   Factoring out the above 3 games probably changes the schedule strength's enough to place Whitworth closer to #70 Williams.

I don't know that any of these games would have a positive effect on Whitworth's Massey SOS. Maybe I'm wrong, but the way it was explained to me was that even these losses to D1's and D2's would decrease a team's ranking slightly.

Since Whitworth wasn't the one playing the actual games here. Their SOS is just based on the quality of the teams on their schedule. So since these other NWC teams are seeing a slight ding for losing to D1's and D2's, Whitworth's SOS may actually be showing up as slightly easier than it might if they were treated as exhibition games.

I'm certainly not an expert on how his rankings are composed; all my info is second hand. I'm open to correction if someone knows for sure.

[David Collinge]

...the school that is also the furthest north, Maine-Presque Isle.

Furthest north in Maine, perhaps, but I think Whitworth, at about 47*39'N latitude, is the northernmost D3 school. Other schools above the 47th parallel include Pacific Lutheran and UPS in Tacoma, and Finlandia in the UP. Presque Isle, ME is at about 46*40'N, and there are at least 2 Minnesota schools plus UW-Superior at or above that latitude.

[nescac1]

Yeah, I am pretty skeptical about the Massey ratings, which always seem to overrate the West region teams / anyone who plays anyone who plays the WIAC, and definitely underrates the New England teams.  I think the d3hoops.com rankings are far more accurate, for example.  I'm just not sold on the strength of Whitworth's conference, at least until I see someone from that conference come close to winning a national title, which I don't think has ever happened, correct me if I'm wrong.  I also note that a guy who wouldn't be in Williams' rotation right now transfered to the second-best team in Whitworth's conference (Lewis and Clark) and is among that team's leaders in points and assists.

Also, Williams, Amherst and Middlebury should all have dramatic bumps in their strength of schedule over the next few weeks, when they should all be battling each other (plus fourth place NESCAC team Trinity) multiple times to end the regular season and in the conference tourney.  So for all of them, some of their toughest games are yet to be played.  And really, Williams has beaten a lot, while not stellar, decent-solid teams this year -- the top two teams in MASCAC, a middling CCIW team, the third place team in NEWMAC (Springfield), a solid Regis team, a few other solid teams, and the Ephs have been blowing them out in almost every case.  Add that to a schedule in one of the big five D-3 conferences, and I simply don't think Massey's schedule ratings are fair.  I mean, I don't think ANYONE outside of Massey places NWC at 4th, WIAC, CCIW, NESCAC, ODAC, OAC are pretty much the consensus top five most years, maybe UAA too although they are way down from the usual standards this year, and the touranement bears it out as those six conferences tend to dominate the final four year in and year out.  

[John Gleich]

Strength of schedule seems to be an issue for some who might question Whitworth's quality.

Massey has:

Whitworth schedule at #24
Amherst schedule at #168
Williams schedule at #70
Middlebury schedule at #137

NWC power conf. at 4th with 4 teams in top 33 of Massey
NE Smalls conf. power at 3rd with 4th team at 99

Conclusion:  Other than playing each other, these three teams from NESCAC haven't played against any serious competition.  That's 4 very tough games on schedule but not much more (#133 Elms for Williams, ME Farmington #310 took Amherst to OT, #117 Plattsburg battled Middlebury, #123 Skidmore, #164 Bates close win at home... ).  WW has 6 tough games plus games won against Massey power 40, 56, & 58. 

9 games vs 4 games?

This conference seems to be a good example of why massey's rating need to be taken with the proper grain of salt.

Massey count's those D3 v D2/D1 exhibitions where the D1/D2 program gets to count it as a real game.  Even though a couple are listed as (ex), they still count in his ratings.

The Northwest Conference has a couple of them

Pacific Lutheran  -- Oct 31 loss to Seattle
George Fox --Nov 6 loss to D2 Western Oregon
Pacific --  Nov. 6 loss to D2 NW Nazarene


Then there are these 2 games, which would give the whole conference a pretty big boost in schedule difficulty.
Willamette --  Nov. 16  loss to D2 W. Washinton
George Fox --Dec 9 loss to D1 Portland State


I'm not saying Whitworth hasn't played a good schedule or tough schedule, I'm just saying I'm not sure using massey's ratings is the right way to demonstrate their strength.   Factoring out the above 3 games probably changes the schedule strength's enough to place Whitworth closer to #70 Williams.

I've emailed Massey in the past and let him know when I've seen things... he's changed those games with the following run, to make everything more accurate.  Maybe we should come up with a list of things that aren't as they should be (For example, CSU East Bay is listed as D-III, but they're listed as D-II on their own site, play in a D-II conference, etc.  That won't affect things much 'cause they don't play any D-III games, but it might affect D-II). 

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

The NWC is not as tough as the NESCAC this year.  That's a given.  But it's not like the gaudy records we've seen from a team like Elms in recent years, one that was won feasting exclusively on bottom-feeders in a weak conference.

Whitworth has earned their wins (only one of which was by less than 10 points).  We saw the talent they threw out last year and transferred in a couple really strong players for this season.

All that together leads me to believe they're #1 right now.  I've got Williams and Wooster right on their tails.  I hope to see all three in Salem.

The biggest kicker for me is simply the consistent domination Whitworth is showing this year.  We've seen some undefeated teams in the past (and near undefeated teams), but I can't remember the last time a team has been so seemingly unstoppable.  They don't have the advantage of another national power on the schedule to serve as a comparison, but they're not beating slouch squads.  The #2, #3, and #4 teams in the NWC are all better than Trinity; its just that the #2 and #3 aren't as good as either Amherst or Middlebury.

[sac]

I'm not saying Whitworth hasn't played a good schedule or tough schedule, I'm just saying I'm not sure using massey's ratings is the right way to demonstrate their strength.   Factoring out the above 3 games probably changes the schedule strength's enough to place Whitworth closer to #70 Williams.

Is there a better way?  Is there a Massey calculator clone that allows for editing of certain games?  Tell me where and I am happy to do the work.  Until then, this is all I can go by and still have a life. 

Its actually not that hard to pull out the D2 and D1 games, it just takes some work. 

[sac]

Strength of schedule seems to be an issue for some who might question Whitworth's quality.

Massey has:

Whitworth schedule at #24
Amherst schedule at #168
Williams schedule at #70
Middlebury schedule at #137

NWC power conf. at 4th with 4 teams in top 33 of Massey
NE Smalls conf. power at 3rd with 4th team at 99

Conclusion:  Other than playing each other, these three teams from NESCAC haven't played against any serious competition.  That's 4 very tough games on schedule but not much more (#133 Elms for Williams, ME Farmington #310 took Amherst to OT, #117 Plattsburg battled Middlebury, #123 Skidmore, #164 Bates close win at home... ).  WW has 6 tough games plus games won against Massey power 40, 56, & 58. 

9 games vs 4 games?

This conference seems to be a good example of why massey's rating need to be taken with the proper grain of salt.

Massey count's those D3 v D2/D1 exhibitions where the D1/D2 program gets to count it as a real game.  Even though a couple are listed as (ex), they still count in his ratings.

The Northwest Conference has a couple of them

Pacific Lutheran  -- Oct 31 loss to Seattle
George Fox --Nov 6 loss to D2 Western Oregon
Pacific --  Nov. 6 loss to D2 NW Nazarene


Then there are these 2 games, which would give the whole conference a pretty big boost in schedule difficulty.
Willamette --  Nov. 16  loss to D2 W. Washinton
George Fox --Dec 9 loss to D1 Portland State


I'm not saying Whitworth hasn't played a good schedule or tough schedule, I'm just saying I'm not sure using massey's ratings is the right way to demonstrate their strength.   Factoring out the above 3 games probably changes the schedule strength's enough to place Whitworth closer to #70 Williams.

I don't know that any of these games would have a positive effect on Whitworth's Massey SOS. Maybe I'm wrong, but the way it was explained to me was that even these losses to D1's and D2's would decrease a team's ranking slightly.

Since Whitworth wasn't the one playing the actual games here. Their SOS is just based on the quality of the teams on their schedule. So since these other NWC teams are seeing a slight ding for losing to D1's and D2's, Whitworth's SOS may actually be showing up as slightly easier than it might if they were treated as exhibition games.

I'm certainly not an expert on how his rankings are composed; all my info is second hand. I'm open to correction if someone knows for sure.

First line from Ratings Overview section of Massey

The ratings are totally interdependent, so that a team's rating is affected by games in which it didn't even play.

[nwhoops1903]

The NWC is not as tough as the NESCAC this year.  That's a given.  But it's not like the gaudy records we've seen from a team like Elms in recent years, one that was won feasting exclusively on bottom-feeders in a weak conference.

Whitworth has earned their wins (only one of which was by less than 10 points).  We saw the talent they threw out last year and transferred in a couple really strong players for this season.

All that together leads me to believe they're #1 right now.  I've got Williams and Wooster right on their tails.  I hope to see all three in Salem.

The biggest kicker for me is simply the consistent domination Whitworth is showing this year.  We've seen some undefeated teams in the past (and near undefeated teams), but I can't remember the last time a team has been so seemingly unstoppable.  They don't have the advantage of another national power on the schedule to serve as a comparison, but they're not beating slouch squads.  The #2, #3, and #4 teams in the NWC are all better than Trinity; its just that the #2 and #3 aren't as good as either Amherst or Middlebury.

Just to set the record straight, Whitworth has only one, (1), uno, new player to its first 6.  Michael Taylor, Sr. transferred from Montana.  Jack Loofburrow was on the team last year and was out of basketball the year before that.  Not a transfer in the true sense. 

The geography of NWC combined with the limited travel budgets of most D3 schools will always keep SCIAC and NWC from having multiple meaningful games vs WIAC, CCIW, ODAC and NESCAC.  Until a far west school makes it to Championship game...I hear that every year and who knows if that will actually change perceptions.  WW is a school, rare, that will jump on a plane and travel pre conference to Wheaton or Wash U just to overcome the doubt/bias. 

Is NWC the 4th toughest conference this year, if you believe Whitworth is as good as some think they are, yes it is.  Does anyone doubt that the West is the strongest REGION?

[KnightSlappy]

Strength of schedule seems to be an issue for some who might question Whitworth's quality.

Massey has:

Whitworth schedule at #24
Amherst schedule at #168
Williams schedule at #70
Middlebury schedule at #137

NWC power conf. at 4th with 4 teams in top 33 of Massey
NE Smalls conf. power at 3rd with 4th team at 99

Conclusion:  Other than playing each other, these three teams from NESCAC haven't played against any serious competition.  That's 4 very tough games on schedule but not much more (#133 Elms for Williams, ME Farmington #310 took Amherst to OT, #117 Plattsburg battled Middlebury, #123 Skidmore, #164 Bates close win at home... ).  WW has 6 tough games plus games won against Massey power 40, 56, & 58. 

9 games vs 4 games?

This conference seems to be a good example of why massey's rating need to be taken with the proper grain of salt.

Massey count's those D3 v D2/D1 exhibitions where the D1/D2 program gets to count it as a real game.  Even though a couple are listed as (ex), they still count in his ratings.

The Northwest Conference has a couple of them

Pacific Lutheran  -- Oct 31 loss to Seattle
George Fox --Nov 6 loss to D2 Western Oregon
Pacific --  Nov. 6 loss to D2 NW Nazarene


Then there are these 2 games, which would give the whole conference a pretty big boost in schedule difficulty.
Willamette --  Nov. 16  loss to D2 W. Washinton
George Fox --Dec 9 loss to D1 Portland State


I'm not saying Whitworth hasn't played a good schedule or tough schedule, I'm just saying I'm not sure using massey's ratings is the right way to demonstrate their strength.   Factoring out the above 3 games probably changes the schedule strength's enough to place Whitworth closer to #70 Williams.

I don't know that any of these games would have a positive effect on Whitworth's Massey SOS. Maybe I'm wrong, but the way it was explained to me was that even these losses to D1's and D2's would decrease a team's ranking slightly.

Since Whitworth wasn't the one playing the actual games here. Their SOS is just based on the quality of the teams on their schedule. So since these other NWC teams are seeing a slight ding for losing to D1's and D2's, Whitworth's SOS may actually be showing up as slightly easier than it might if they were treated as exhibition games.

I'm certainly not an expert on how his rankings are composed; all my info is second hand. I'm open to correction if someone knows for sure.

First line from Ratings Overview section of Massey

The ratings are totally interdependent, so that a team's rating is affected by games in which it didn't even play.

Exactly. But in this case the rating of, say, George Fox, is broght down by losing an exhibition game to a D2. So, since George Fox is looks 'artificially' worse than they might otherwise be (if the game was not counted by Massey), Whitworth's SOS is also 'artificially' worse.

George Fox's SOS is boosted by the game, but their overall rating is lower than if it wasn't counted. Whitworth's SOS is based off George Fox's rating, not SOS.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

...the school that is also the furthest north, Maine-Presque Isle.

Furthest north in Maine, perhaps, but I think Whitworth, at about 47*39'N latitude, is the northernmost D3 school. Other schools above the 47th parallel include Pacific Lutheran and UPS in Tacoma, and Finlandia in the UP. Presque Isle, ME is at about 46*40'N, and there are at least 2 Minnesota schools plus UW-Superior at or above that latitude.

Yeah - mentioned I wasn't sure about other teams... and since UMPI is 46*40'N... any school above 47th parallel is higher. But at least you can't be further east!

As for the talk about Whitworth... the point they have been dominating teams and haven't had any close games shows they are that good. I am more impressed in the simple fact that don't seem to have an off night... and I saw them have an off night for one of their players only to have someone else step up in that game to make up for it. Heck, from half to half there were different guys stepping up... they are a real team instead of individuals which makes them interesting to watch.

[sac]

Exactly. But in this case the rating of, say, George Fox, is broght down by losing an exhibition game to a D2. So, since George Fox is looks 'artificially' worse than they might otherwise be (if the game was not counted by Massey), Whitworth's SOS is also 'artificially' worse.

George Fox's SOS is boosted by the game, but their overall rating is lower than if it wasn't counted. Whitworth's SOS is based off George Fox's rating, not SOS.

I'm nearly 100% sure that's not the case, look at all the programs who are rated as having played the toughest schedule's....1-24 all the way down to Whitworth have something in common, SOS tied to either their own or an opponents games vs teams in D1 or D2 (some of those exhibitions counted in massey's ratings)

I don't think this is a miraculous coincidence.