Top 25 talk

[John Gleich]

I think it should go Midd-Williams-Whitworth, but we'll have to see.  At full strength, I believe Midd and Williams are very, very even teams (I note that Williams was without a key player today, Nate Robertson, who is second on the team in minutes and assists and is one of two primary ball-handlers, as well as their top perimeter defender).  Midd really played tremendously this weekend and deserves the top spot after beating two top-ten teams, including number one, back-to-back on the road.

I really hope Midd and Williams are placed in different quarters of the bracket, the way the NCAA did with Amherst and Williams back in 2004 (with both ultimately making the Final Four). 

I wonder if Stevens Point will pick up some more #1 votes too...  They're the defending national champ, of course, and have won 12 straight and 19/20. 

I think that Pat Coleman will sell you a banner ad to plug your team for #1 amongst the voters.   

Tempting... but I'd rather have the #1 nod in about 3 weeks or so...   

And I didn't necessarily say that I thought they should be number one (...necessarily...), just wondered if they would get more votes.

[Ralph Turner]

I think it should go Midd-Williams-Whitworth, but we'll have to see.  At full strength, I believe Midd and Williams are very, very even teams (I note that Williams was without a key player today, Nate Robertson, who is second on the team in minutes and assists and is one of two primary ball-handlers, as well as their top perimeter defender).  Midd really played tremendously this weekend and deserves the top spot after beating two top-ten teams, including number one, back-to-back on the road.

I really hope Midd and Williams are placed in different quarters of the bracket, the way the NCAA did with Amherst and Williams back in 2004 (with both ultimately making the Final Four). 

I wonder if Stevens Point will pick up some more #1 votes too...  They're the defending national champ, of course, and have won 12 straight and 19/20. 

I think that Pat Coleman will sell you a banner ad to plug your team for #1 amongst the voters.   

Tempting... but I'd rather have the #1 nod in about 3 weeks or so...   

And I didn't necessarily say that I thought they should be number one (...necessarily...), just wondered if they would get more votes.

Just looking for more revenue for the website.

I am sure that Pat will take any thing that he can get.   

[nescac1]

Whitworth: 0 wins over top 25 teams, one loss vs. non-top 25
Williams: 2-2, including one loss, on the road, in OT, without its best player, 0 losses to teams outside the top 25
Middlebury: 3-1, 0 losses to teams outside the top 25

I think Midd is a clear number one, but I also don't think Williams should be seeded below Whitworth (not that it matters since they will be on opposite halves of the bracket).  In addition to those four brutal rivalry games, Williams beat another NCAA team (Elms), a solid Bowdoin squad twice, a tough Trinity team twice, and solid Salem State and RPI teams, both of whom made their conference finals.  If you look at Williams' top 10 toughest games vs. Whitworth's, it's not even close. 

MIdd's non-conference schedule was pretty weak, but what they did over the last weekend was VERY impressive, and going 3-1 vs. Amherst and Williams, with three of those four away from home, is no mean feat. 

I really can't imagine that Midd or Williams would have had much trouble with anyone on Whitworth's schedule, including the team Whitworth lost to.  

Stevens Point, that is a different story.  They have been fairly dominant in the best conference in D-3, and are, after all, the defending champs.  Going into the tourney, I'd say they are the odds-on favorite to win the title, especially if Tillema can return at some point.  I could see an argument for putting them number one before I'd put Whitworth, who hasn't beaten a single team even receiving VOTES in the last top 25 poll.  

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (Complete)

The final report, in case you missed a score this weekend ...

The distribution of the SOS scores in this list (not ALL SOS scores):

• Mean = 0.510, SD = 0.0337
• min = 0.448, Q₁ = 0.4825, Med = 0.506, Q₃ = 0.5370, max = 0.583

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	SOS	Results
#1	617	Williams	25-2	0.583	def. Trinity (Conn.), 79-69; LOST to #3 Middlebury, 54-63
#2	576	Whitworth	26-1	0.505	def. Pacific Lutheran, 74-63; def. Whitman, 74-50
#3	571	Middlebury	25-1	0.539	def. #7 Amherst, 67-61; def. #1 Williams, 63-54
#4	546	UW-Stevens Point	24-3	0.554	def. UW-Superior, 84-52; def. #22 UW-River Falls, 79-56
#5	540	Wooster	26-2	0.507	def. Allegheny, 62-57; def. Ohio Wesleyan, 70-62; def. #33 Wittenberg, 82-68
#6	490	Augustana	24-3	0.499	LOST at Illinois Wesleyan, 68-70; def. Wheaton (Ill.), 73-58; def. Illinois Wesleyan, 76-52
#7	475	Amherst	22-3	0.453	LOST at #3 Middlebury, 61-67
#8	426	Randolph-Macon	24-4	0.543	def. Roanoke, 63-56; def. #11 Eastern Mennonite, 90-79; def. Randolph, 68-43
#9	413	St. Thomas	24-3	0.538	def. Hamline, 78-70; def. Gustavus Adolphus, 83-77
#10	403	Virginia Wesleyan	23-4	0.506	def. Washington and Lee, 98-78; LOST to Randolph, 76-80
#11	381	Eastern Mennonite	22-5	0.483	def. Hampden-Sydney, 76-75; LOST at #8 Randolph-Macon, 79-90
#12	303	WPI	22-5	0.535	def. Coast Guard, 62-51; LOST to MIT, 52-63
#13	285	Marietta	25-3	0.474	def. Wilmington, 84-73; def. Heidelberg, 70-55; def. John Carroll, 88-85
#14	240	Rochester	20-5	0.490	LOST at #38 Emory, 72-83
#15	226	Chapman	24-3	0.532	def. La Sierra, 61-56; def. University of Dallas, 73-43; def. UC Santa Cruz, 91-77
#16	225	Wabash	20-6	0.505	def. Kenyon, 72-61; LOST at #33 Wittenberg, 63-65
#17	224	Western Connecticut	21-5	0.531	LOST to Eastern Connecticut, 70-94
#18	214	St. Mary's (Md.)	22-5	0.488	def. Mary Washington, 79-57; def. Wesley, 97-65
#19	134	Franklin and Marshall	22-5	0.473	def. Haverford, 71-62; def. Dickinson, 65-55
#20	122	St. Norbert	20-5	0.470	def. Ripon, 75-52; def. Grinnell, 89-67
#21	115	Concordia (Wis.)	23-4	0.524	def. Wisconsin Lutheran, 90-58; LOST to Edgewood, 89-95
#22	96	UW-River Falls	20-7	0.575	def. UW-Platteville, 69-60; LOST at #4 UW-Stevens Point, 56-79
#23	85	Becker	23-4	0.518	def. Newbury, 84-75; LOST to Elms, 65-79
#24	63	Oswego State	23-4	0.502	def. Potsdam State, 64-50; LOST to Brockport State, 70-74
#25	59	Ramapo	20-6	0.513	LOST to Montclair State, 64-67

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	SOS	Results
#26	55	Ferrum	23-5	0.466	def. Averett, 70-47; def. Christopher Newport, 87-81; LOST at #36 North Carolina Wesleyan, 70-74
#27	51	Texas-Dallas	21-5	0.502	def. Concordia (Texas), 85-70; LOST to Mary Hardin-Baylor, 69-77
#28	43	Manchester	21-6	0.502	def. Transylvania, 68-65; def. Hanover, 79-69
#29	34	Penn State-Behrend	23-4	0.449	def. Medaille, 58-51; LOST at #31 La Roche, 53-55
#30	23	Centre	21-5	0.482	def. Hendrix, 54-46; def. Oglethorpe, 70-57; def. DePauw, 75-63
#31	19	La Roche	25-2	0.477	def. Hilbert, 86-69; def. #29 Penn State-Behrend, 55-53
#32	17	Hope	22-6	0.522	def. Alma, 110-77; def. Adrian, 63-45; def. Calvin, 72-67
#33	16	Wittenberg	19-8	0.536	def. Denison, 77-63; def. #16 Wabash, 65-63; LOST at #5 Wooster, 68-82
T#34	8	Carleton	18-8	0.542	LOST to Gustavus Adolphus, 64-70
T#34	8	Ithaca	20-6	0.559	LOST to St. John Fisher, 75-88
#36	7	North Carolina Wesleyan	21-6	0.503	def. Greensboro, 86-69; def. #26 Ferrum, 74-70
#37	5	North Central (Ill.)	15-11	0.552	LOST to Illinois Wesleyan, 57-69
#38	4	Emory	20-5	0.462	def. #14 Rochester, 83-72
#39	3	New Jersey City	19-9	0.519	def. Kean, 75-61; def. Montclair State, 72-67
#40	2	UW-Whitewater	17-9	0.546	LOST to UW-Superior, 72-78
#41	1	Salem State	20-7	0.448	def. Westfield State, 81-68; LOST to Bridgewater State, 73-91

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Whitworth: 0 wins over top 25 teams, one loss vs. non-top 25
Williams: 2-2, including one loss, on the road, in OT, without its best player, 0 losses to teams outside the top 25
Middlebury: 3-1, 0 losses to teams outside the top 25

I think Midd is a clear number one, but I also don't think Williams should be seeded below Whitworth (not that it matters since they will be on opposite halves of the bracket).  In addition to those four brutal rivalry games, Williams beat another NCAA team (Elms), a solid Bowdoin squad twice, a tough Trinity team twice, and solid Salem State and RPI teams, both of whom made their conference finals.  If you look at Williams' top 10 toughest games vs. Whitworth's, it's not even close.  

MIdd's non-conference schedule was pretty weak, but what they did over the last weekend was VERY impressive, and going 3-1 vs. Amherst and Williams, with three of those four away from home, is no mean feat.  

I really can't imagine that Midd or Williams would have had much trouble with anyone on Whitworth's schedule, including the team Whitworth lost to.  

Stevens Point, that is a different story.  They have been fairly dominant in the best conference in D-3, and are, after all, the defending champs.  Going into the tourney, I'd say they are the odds-on favorite to win the title, especially if Tillema can return at some point.  I could see an argument for putting them number one before I'd put Whitworth, who hasn't beaten a single team even receiving VOTES in the last top 25 poll.  

Not changing my vote
I have seen Middlebury and Williams play in video and Whitworth in person... I think Whitworth is a better team. Too bad they didn't get a chance to play Stevens Point in Las Vegas.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Whitworth: 0 wins over top 25 teams, one loss vs. non-top 25
Williams: 2-2, including one loss, on the road, in OT, without its best player, 0 losses to teams outside the top 25
Middlebury: 3-1, 0 losses to teams outside the top 25

I think Midd is a clear number one, but I also don't think Williams should be seeded below Whitworth (not that it matters since they will be on opposite halves of the bracket).  In addition to those four brutal rivalry games, Williams beat another NCAA team (Elms), a solid Bowdoin squad twice, a tough Trinity team twice, and solid Salem State and RPI teams, both of whom made their conference finals.  If you look at Williams' top 10 toughest games vs. Whitworth's, it's not even close.  

MIdd's non-conference schedule was pretty weak, but what they did over the last weekend was VERY impressive, and going 3-1 vs. Amherst and Williams, with three of those four away from home, is no mean feat.  

I really can't imagine that Midd or Williams would have had much trouble with anyone on Whitworth's schedule, including the team Whitworth lost to.  

Stevens Point, that is a different story.  They have been fairly dominant in the best conference in D-3, and are, after all, the defending champs.  Going into the tourney, I'd say they are the odds-on favorite to win the title, especially if Tillema can return at some point.  I could see an argument for putting them number one before I'd put Whitworth, who hasn't beaten a single team even receiving VOTES in the last top 25 poll.  

Not changing my vote
I have seen Middlebury and Williams play in video and Whitworth in person... I think Whitworth is a better team. Too bad they didn't get a chance to play Stevens Point in Las Vegas.

I predict they'll get that opportunity in about two weeks.   (And the way UWSP is currently playing, they may not enjoy the opportunity as much as they might have in Vegas. )

[nwhoops1903]

nescac1, as always, you provide an eloquent defense for Middlebury, on paper (or LCD).  But the fact remains that for two years running they have gone through a paper-tiger schedule like a blowtorch, only to come up empty in the NCAA tournament, both times at home against opponents that a legitimate top 10 team should beat.  I'm afraid they'll actually have to accomplish something before I am persuaded that #9 does not constitute a wild overranking for the Panthers.  You say they'll be even better next year; good.  Maybe I can get persuaded next March.

Just bringing this forward.   

[nwhoops1903]

Whitworth tops NWC preseason poll.

http://www.nwcsports.com/sports/mbkb/2010-11/news/poll

.... I can argue WW has THE BEST potential impact newcomer in the country.

So after 25+ games, Can anyone top Michael Taylor as best impact newcomer?

[nescac1]

I don't think it's even close, nwhoops1903,  considering he may end up a first team All-American.  But considering he was ROY in a D-1 conference and transferred in as a senior, did anyone really have a chance??? 

In terms of top frosh, for a long time NESCAC folks would have said Aaron Toomey, until around the last three weeks of the season.  Now, he may not even be (and probably doesn't deserve to be) rookie of the year in his own conference, after Joey Kizel helped carry Midd to the NESCAC title.  Things can change very quickly in D-3 hoops!

[89Pirate]

Whitworth tops NWC preseason poll.

http://www.nwcsports.com/sports/mbkb/2010-11/news/poll

.... I can argue WW has THE BEST potential impact newcomer in the country.

So after 25+ games, Can anyone top Michael Taylor as best impact newcomer?

Simple answer is NO !

[magicman]

New Top 25 poll is up and Whitworth regains the top spot edging out Middlebury by 1 point, 601-600. The Pirates get 14 first place votes to 8 for the Panthers. Steven Points moves up to #3 and gets 2 first place votes, while Williams falls from #1 down to #4. Wooster remains at #5 and gets the remaining 1st place vote. Same top 10 as last week just reshuffled a bit.

[nwhoops1903]

Hey NESCAC1,  close but no cigar baby!!!    

[nwhoops1903]

For all the Massey Ratings supporters and skeptics:

Previous to last weekends games, Massey had 14 of its top 16 (EMU and Carleton) in the tourney.  All ratings used here are as of 3/2.

Of the 14, 12 advance to round 2.  #10 UW-RF and #14 St Norbert lose to #2 UW-SP and #31 IWU.  
10 of those advance to round 3.  The 2 that fell - #16 Hope to #8 Augustana, #7 Randolph Macon to #18 St. Mary's.

Only 2 "upsets" in 22 games.  20-2 record

Of the other 6 teams still alive: 8-4 record

#18 St. Mary's beat #7 RMU, #211 Medgar Evers
#29 Rochester beat #87 Elms, #92 MIT
#43 MHB beat #28 McMurry, #36 UT Dallas
#60 RI College  beat #132 PS-Behrend, #73 Oswego St.
#75 Cabrini beat #90 New Jersey City, #116 SUNY Purchase
#91 Buffalo St. beat #84 Gwynedd-Mercy, #188 Johnson & Wales

Massey Record amongst remaining 16: 28-5 (1 game in both groups StMarys/RM).  

This info is not shocking since most of us thought the top 12 teams were pretty clear, even to Massey  .  Next round will really be the test.

Other info:
Masseys Bracket would have 51 points. Tied for 11th with 14 of 16 in the field.

[John Gleich]

It appears that Luther vs. Concordia (WI) was an upset...  Luther currently sits at 34 (up 13 spots) and CUW is #28 (down 5 spots), though that may be one of the five losses you noted.

What were the other upsets from the "other 16?"

[sac]

It appears that Luther vs. Concordia (WI) was an upset...  Luther currently sits at 34 (up 13 spots) and CUW is #28 (down 5 spots), though that may be one of the five losses you noted.

What were the other upsets from the "other 16?"

Pretty sure Johnson and Wales over Ramapo was one