Top 25 talk

[gordonmann]

To get to Salem a CCIW program has a strong possibility of having to go through a WIAC.

Right, along with other elite programs like St. Thomas, Wooster and Washington U..  Take a look at the Midwest Regional Section of the Conference Guidebook. Scroll down to MW-5 and it lists who the CCIW teams have played in the last 10 NCAA tournaments.

You can find similar summaries for every other conference grouped by region here.

http://www.d3hoops.com/guidebook/2012-13/index

Another more subjective way to measure conference strength is the number of All-American selections, which the Guidebook lists by region. Look at the number of selections and the diversity of teams for each conference.  The CCIW, NESCAC, UAA and WIAC have a lot of selections and most members represented at some point.  By contrast, the MIAA has a lot of selections from Hope and Calvin.

[02 Warhawk]

So a team like WPI from the NEWMAC (which is a conference that hasn't been discussed as a "top tier") might struggle a bit in the tourny, having not faced tough competition yet?

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Last year MIT lost in the semis after UW-Whitewater had to make a comeback to win it... they are from the NEWMAC and had to go through some tough teams to get there... so you can't read into that at all.

[02 Warhawk]

Last year MIT lost in the semis after UW-Whitewater had to make a comeback to win it... they are from the NEWMAC and had to go through some tough teams to get there... so you can't read into that at all.

What do you mean? Tournament games aren't won on statistics and paper alone?

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

LOL yep . And if they were won on paper - MIT would be an easy favorite every year because of their book smarts!

Basically, there are power conferences to be sure, but as Gordon and others have noted, teams have come out of a lot of different conferences to play for a title or win one. In the 12 years I have been to the Final Four... I have seen title games featuring the following conferences: UAA, NESCAC, WIAC, CAC, Centennial, NJAC, CSAC, ODAC, MIAC, OAC, NCAC and MAC. Others at the Final Four included NEWMAC, CCIW and MIAA. That is 15 conferences out of 40+.

[Hugenerd]

So a team like WPI from the NEWMAC (which is a conference that hasn't been discussed as a "top tier") might struggle a bit in the tourny, having not faced tough competition yet?

If you look at the compiled data, the NEWMAC has done very well out of conference, with a top 5 or so out of conference record among all conferences in the last 10 years. As Dave stated, MIT made the national semifinals last year and has been in the tourney 4 straight years (if they make it this year, it will be 5). In the past 5-10 years, Clark, Coast Guard, MIT, and WPI have all made some time of run in the tourney. 

Amherst only has two losses this year, both to NEWMAC schools, and neither of them were to the top 2 teams in the conference (#3 and #5 NEWMAC teams).

They may not be a Top 5 power, but they are in that above average group Knightslappy mentioned, and the top 5 teams in the conference (there are only 7 mens teams in the NEWMAC) could give a top team in the country a battle on any given night (for example, when Babson won at Amherst earlier this year).

[7express]

I agree, the LEC isn't a strong/powerful as the WIAC, NESCAC, UAA is, especially this year, but the numbers Pat just posted should make them one of the powers in basketball.  Last year 6th best record against non conference opponents, 5th best record against division 3 non conference opponents, 11th out of 43 conferences in winning percentage since 2003, and tied for 6th for the most bids since 2003.
Those numbers will take a dip for this season based on the talent that was lost, but the tournament numbers the last 10 years show the LEC isn't a slouch either.

Gotta give Gordon Mann credit where credit is due -- that's his post, and the Guidebook is his research and compilation.

My apologies Gordon Mann, I saw the D3sports logo on the post and figured it was Pat, my mistake.

[gordonmann]

No problem.

[smedindy]

Here's a comparison of how the Division III conferences stack up, including their NCAA tournament performance for the last 10 years.

It just struck me that, for all the quality teams the CCIW has turned out, they really haven't done that well in March. I mean, they've been really good of course, but not as good as the NCAC and only marginally better than the MIAA -- two leagues that are generally considered to be a tier below.

Perhaps it has to do with the teams making the tournament. The CCIW has a solid top and good depth, but the top teams are not necessarily better than Wooster, Wittenberg, Calvin, and Hope.

So the NCAC and the MIAA isn't a very strong conference in basketball (compared to the top tier conferences at least)?

I'd say, generally speaking, the NCAC and MIAA are in the 6-15 range when it comes to conferenece rankings. In there with the MIAC, MACC, NWC, IIAC, ASW, OAC, and more recently the HCAC (among others). Decidedly above average, but not in the elite group.

The NCAC recently added DePauw and removed Earlham (to the HCAC - their problem now) so the NCAC is edging up in depth.

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (So Far)

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	624	St. Thomas	24-1	02/22 vs. Carleton
#2	596	Amherst	23-2	02/23 vs. Tufts
#3	560	Illinois Wesleyan	21-4	LOST at #5 North Central (Ill.), 83-87
#4	540	Middlebury	22-2	02/23 at #7 Williams
#5	510	North Central (Ill.)	22-3	def. #3 Illinois Wesleyan, 87-83
#6	430	WPI	23-2	02/23 vs. Babson; 02/24 vs. TBA
#7	428	Williams	22-3	02/23 vs. #4 Middlebury
#8	408	Whitworth	22-3	02/21 vs. Lewis and Clark
#9	398	UW-Whitewater	21-4	02/21 vs. T#32 UW-Stout
#10	388	UW-Stevens Point	21-4	02/21 vs. UW-Platteville
#11	385	Catholic	23-3	def. Merchant Marine, 65-57; 02/23 vs. Juniata
#12	360	Hampden-Sydney	22-3	02/22 vs. Roanoke; 02/23 vs. ODAC Tournament Semifinals; 02/24 vs. ODAC Tournament Championship
#13	339	Rochester	21-3	02/23 at T#36 Emory
#14	296	St. Mary's (Md.)	22-3	02/21 vs. Mary Washington; 02/23 at CAC Championship
#15	269	Calvin	22-3	02/21 vs. Adrian
#16	265	Rhode Island College	23-3	def. Mass-Dartmouth, 62-58; 02/22 vs. Southern Maine
#17	261	Wooster	22-4	def. Oberlin, 74-47; 02/22 vs. Wittenberg
#18	199	Ramapo	22-4	def. William Paterson, 83-58; 02/22 vs. Rutgers-Newark
#19	172	MIT	20-4	02/23 vs. T#42 Springfield
#20	171	Wheaton (Ill.)	20-5	won at Elmhurst, 70-55
#21	145	Virginia Wesleyan	19-6	02/22 vs. Eastern Mennonite
#22	84	Washington U.	19-5	02/23 vs. Chicago
#23	79	Rose-Hulman	22-3	02/22 vs. Defiance
#24	44	Ohio Wesleyan	20-5	def. Denison, 77-56; 02/22 vs. Kenyon
#25	31	Cortland State	21-4	02/22 vs. Oswego State

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	26	Alvernia	22-4	def. Arcadia, 69-66; 02/23 vs. Lycoming
#27	21	Stevens	21-4	02/22 vs. Utica
#28	16	Christopher Newport	18-5	02/21 vs. Averett
#29	13	Cabrini	21-5	def. Neumann, 90-77; 02/22 vs. Keystone
#30	9	Mary Hardin-Baylor	21-4	02/22 vs. LeTourneau
#31	8	Transylvania	20-6	def. Mount St. Joseph, 75-57; 02/22 at Hanover
T#32	6	St. Norbert	18-5	02/22 vs. Ripon
T#32	6	UW-Stout	20-6	def. UW-Superior, 78-64; 02/21 at #9 UW-Whitewater
T#34	5	Albertus Magnus	22-4	def. Rivier, 84-65; 02/21 vs. Johnson and Wales
T#34	5	Capital	19-6	02/21 vs. Mount Union
T#36	4	Emory	18-6	def. Covenant, 75-50; 02/23 vs. #13 Rochester
T#36	4	Carroll	17-6	02/22 at Grinnell
T#38	3	Augsburg	20-6	def. St. John's, 74-67; 02/22 at Concordia-Moorhead
T#38	3	Thomas More	22-4	def. Geneva, 82-60; 02/21 vs. Thiel
T#38	3	DeSales	21-5	def. FDU-Florham, 59-57; 02/23 vs. Delaware Valley
T#38	3	Baldwin Wallace	19-6	IDLE
T#42	2	Springfield	18-7	02/23 at #19 MIT
T#42	2	Wesley	19-6	02/21 vs. Salisbury; 02/23 vs. TBD
T#42	2	Westfield State	21-4	02/21 vs. Fitchburg State
T#45	1	Hobart	20-6	def. Skidmore, 77-72; 02/23 vs. RPI
T#45	1	Franklin and Marshall	19-6	02/22 vs. Muhlenberg; 02/23 vs. TBD

[Greek Tragedy]

I think I've come to the conclusion that the top teams from so-called weaker conferences are just as good as those top teams from power conferences. The difference between conferences is the depth. Back when I was un-informed and arrogant (and ignorant), I basically assumed that the WIAC's top dogs would beat any lower-tiered opponent, even if it was their best team. Throughout the many years, I have tried to focus more on the National stage rather than just the WIAC and nearby conferences and have come to appreciate the talent level of other teams in other conferences. Its nice to expand your horizons!

[Ralph Turner]

I think I've come to the conclusion that the top teams from so-called weaker conferences are just as good as those top teams from power conferences. The difference between conferences is the depth. Back when I was un-informed and arrogant (and ignorant), I basically assumed that the WIAC's top dogs would beat any lower-tiered opponent, even if it was their best team. Throughout the many years, I have tried to focus more on the National stage rather than just the WIAC and nearby conferences and have come to appreciate the talent level of other teams in other conferences. Its nice to expand your horizons!

I agree, especially if there is major travel involved.  D-III has so few occasions when a team flies out of area prior to the tournament, that Home Court Advantage, HCA, is usually a major factor, IMHO.

Also, the HCA in the post-season really plays a big factor.

Going to radically neutral sights for the playoffs, like D-1, would expose this parity more readily.

[mailsy]

There is one more top 25 poll coming out, correct? Unlike the regional rankings. 

[Greek Tragedy]

Theres another regional ranking, its just staying in the closet. Apparently it doesnt feel comfortable enough to come out yet. 

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Yes... one more Top 25 this Monday before the tournaments... and then one after.

And actually there is one more regional ranking done on Sunday... we just don't get to see it.