Top 25 talk

[sac]

New Poll  http://www.d3hoops.com/top25/men/2013-14/week1

[madzillagd]

My  of the week looking at the poll....

- Midd loses 2 games and drops only 1 spot in the polls versus NCC loses 2 games and drops 16 spots in the polls. (Yes Midd has better wins but still a 15 spot difference in reaction is pretty amazing)
 
- NCC (2-2) with 2 wins over Valor Christian and Illinois Tech stays in at #22 versus Loras (2-2) with 2 wins over #2 IWU and #5 Wheaton is still on the outside.  The point differential was NCC 97, Loras 8.  Definitely a vote for where people think they will end up versus a vote for what they've accomplished (or haven't accomplished) so far. 

[Pat Coleman]

My  of the week looking at the poll....

- Midd loses 2 games and drops only 1 spot in the polls versus NCC loses 2 games and drops 16 spots in the polls. (Yes Midd has better wins but still a 15 spot difference in reaction is pretty amazing)

Also Midd has better losses.

[madzillagd]

My  of the week looking at the poll....

- Midd loses 2 games and drops only 1 spot in the polls versus NCC loses 2 games and drops 16 spots in the polls. (Yes Midd has better wins but still a 15 spot difference in reaction is pretty amazing)

Also Midd has a better loss es.

Corrected  .

[magicman]

Is this the first year SUNY-Purchase has been referred to as Purchase State? I've never heard them called that before.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

My  of the week looking at the poll....

- Midd loses 2 games and drops only 1 spot in the polls versus NCC loses 2 games and drops 16 spots in the polls. (Yes Midd has better wins but still a 15 spot difference in reaction is pretty amazing)

Also Midd has a better loss es.

Don't correct it because they had both better losses and better wins...

And Loras needs to do more than just beat Top 25 teams... like beat teams they shouldn't thus lose to if they are beating Top 25 teams.

Corrected  .

[John Gleich]

North Central was highly ranked based off of their finish last year. As has been attested by CCIW posters, they lost quite a bit from last year's team... and, if ranked, should have probably been in the mid-20's or in a similar level with "ORV" teams.

Wheaton has some very good players... but they have very little depth, as they have for the past few years. So, they have the ability to win tough games against tough competition... but they also may be stretched thin by teams that otherwise would be put away by deeper teams.


So, though the wins by Loras appeared good, they were wins against over-rated teams (who also lost other games... their oppontents' stock is falling, not rising).

And while the jury may still be out on Millikin (4-1 is a very respectable start), they have yet to win any CCIW games themselves this season... and may just be a lot of hype and no substance.

The loss against Rockford was just bad and is a pretty glaring blemish on their record.

[Gregory Sager]

My  of the week looking at the poll....

- Midd loses 2 games and drops only 1 spot in the polls versus NCC loses 2 games and drops 16 spots in the polls. (Yes Midd has better wins but still a 15 spot difference in reaction is pretty amazing)
 
- NCC (2-2) with 2 wins over Valor Christian and Illinois Tech stays in at #22 versus Loras (2-2) with 2 wins over #2 IWU and #5 Wheaton is still on the outside.  The point differential was NCC 97, Loras 8.  Definitely a vote for where people think they will end up versus a vote for what they've accomplished (or haven't accomplished) so far.

Looks like you answered your own question vis-à-vis North Central, madzilla. Not only did NCC lose two games, but the two games that the Cardinals won were against absolutely awful competition. Valor Christian is a USCAA outfit that North Central has used several times now as a tipoff tourney cupcake. Illinois Tech is a startup program; IIT is so bad that the Scarlet Hawks were beaten by a club team from Northeastern Illinois University (which doesn't have varsity athletics) the other night. IIT probably won't beat a legit college varsity team this year.

Never mind comparing NCC to Middlebury; I'm astonished that any of the pollsters still have NCC on their ballots at all. Anyone who thinks that North Central will end up #22 isn't paying close attention to the Cardinals.

Is this the first year SUNY-Purchase has been referred to as Purchase State? I've never heard them called that before.

Probably just going along with the common convention of referring to all non-D1 SUNY schools as "____ State".

North Central was highly ranked based off of their finish last year. As has been attested by CCIW posters, they lost quite a bit from last year's team... and, if ranked, should have probably been in the mid-20's or in a similar level with "ORV" teams.

Again, though, why does anybody still have the Cards on their ballot?

Wheaton has some very good players... but they have very little depth, as they have for the past few years. So, they have the ability to win tough games against tough competition... but they also may be stretched thin by teams that otherwise would be put away by deeper teams.

I thought that Wheaton was ranked a bit too high in the preseason poll, although not as drastically as NCC was. Mike Schauer's boys are now #14, which is right about where I think they initially belonged.

So, though the wins by Loras appeared good, they were wins against over-rated teams (who also lost other games... their oppontents' stock is falling, not rising).

And while the jury may still be out on Millikin (4-1 is a very respectable start), they have yet to win any CCIW games themselves this season... and may just be a lot of hype and no substance.

The loss against Rockford was just bad and is a pretty glaring blemish on their record.

It's certainly worth keeping an eye on the Duhawks to ascertain whether last week was a fluke or the beginning of a trend. Their upcoming home contest against Augustana on Dec. 4 should prove interesting.

[John Gleich]

North Central was highly ranked based off of their finish last year. As has been attested by CCIW posters, they lost quite a bit from last year's team... and, if ranked, should have probably been in the mid-20's or in a similar level with "ORV" teams.

Again, though, why does anybody still have the Cards on their ballot?

Yep, I'm with you. A #22 team with 2 losses (such as Rhode Island College...) probably would have found itself with just 2 poll points (like RIC).

An ORV team with 2 losses (such as Franklin and Marshall) probably won't have any votes at all (like F&M).

But, unless they lose over their next few games, NCC will most likely STAY in the poll, because they were ranked last week.  Definitely an example of poll fail.  (I'd imagine that there's probably a .gif somewhere of a poll fail, but I don't want to go looking for it, as it would probably be found on a site a bit less family-friendly than this one...).

Wheaton has some very good players... but they have very little depth, as they have for the past few years. So, they have the ability to win tough games against tough competition... but they also may be stretched thin by teams that otherwise would be put away by deeper teams.

I thought that Wheaton was ranked a bit too high in the preseason poll, although not as drastically as NCC was. Mike Schauer's boys are now #14, which is right about where I think they initially belonged.

But... should they even be that high? They were TOO highly ranked to begin with... probably should have been mid-teens.  See what happened to Randolph-Macon... they dropped out (though those losses weren't against equal competition).

So, though the wins by Loras appeared good, they were wins against over-rated teams (who also lost other games... their oppontents' stock is falling, not rising).

And while the jury may still be out on Millikin (4-1 is a very respectable start), they have yet to win any CCIW games themselves this season... and may just be a lot of hype and no substance.

The loss against Rockford was just bad and is a pretty glaring blemish on their record.

It's certainly worth keeping an eye on the Duhawks to ascertain whether last week was a fluke or the beginning of a trend. Their upcoming home contest against Augustana on Dec. 4 should prove interesting.

Agreed.  Augie's lone loss seems decent (Platteville) until the Pio's dropped one to St. Olaf. But, then again, St. Olaf's lone loss was to Augie.

Guess maybe we should look at the Oles? They've got a big test tomorrow... at my Pointers.

[Gregory Sager]

I think that when the smoke clears at the end of February, Wheaton will be sitting somewhere in the vicinity of #14. That's what I meant by that statement.

Augie is legit. The team didn't have the services of starting center Kevin Schlitter (who doesn't pass the eyeball test, as he looks too heavy to be effective, but who really is a highly-skilled low-post player) the night that it lost to UWP, as he was out with the flu. Not saying that Augie would've definitely beaten the Pios if it had Schlitter in the lineup, as I'm always wary about making those kinds of declarations. But I suspect that Augie's on its way to another 20-win season, or very close to it.

[magicman]

Good analysis by Greg and John as usual. I don't understand how a 2-2 team can still be in the Top 25. Give the teams out there that merit a mention their moment in the sun. It's one thing to be 2-2 with 2 good wins and 2 good losses. North Central isn't even close to that. John Carroll 4-0, Richard Stockton 3-0, New Jersey City 4-0 are just a few of the teams out there that deserve to be ranked over North Central. I'd be willing to wager that come the end of February, John Carroll will be ranked and have a better record than North Central.

Looks like the Wesley Wolverines might be moving into the Top 25 next week as well.

[sac]

But, unless they lose over their next few games, NCC will most likely STAY in the poll, because they were ranked last week.  Definitely an example of poll fail.  (I'd imagine that there's probably a .gif somewhere of a poll fail, but I don't want to go looking for it, as it would probably be found on a site a bit less family-friendly than this one...).

Its not a .gif, because, yeah you're right.......but NC is the driveway here.

[John Gleich]

But, unless they lose over their next few games, NCC will most likely STAY in the poll, because they were ranked last week.  Definitely an example of poll fail.  (I'd imagine that there's probably a .gif somewhere of a poll fail, but I don't want to go looking for it, as it would probably be found on a site a bit less family-friendly than this one...).

Its not a .gif, because, yeah you're right.......but NC is the driveway here.

Always there when I need ya! Thanks Sac!


Two top 10 losses last night...

#6 Mary Hardin Baylor dropped their contest against Trinity (Tx) 62-58
#8 Hampden-Sydney did the same against 4-0 RV Wesley 78-72


Other top 25 results of note:

#5 Whitewater pulled away from #17 St Norbert on the road 73-62 after leading by 2 at the half (despite shooting 23%). They picked themselves up by shooting 70% in the second half.

#7 Illinois Wesleyan squeaked by winless Wabash 68-57. The injuries are really piling up for the Titans... I think they have 4 major contributors who are out right now with injuries. We'll have to see if they can weather the storm while those guys are out or if they take a few more lumps.

#9 Cabrini handed RV Scranton its first loss in pretty convincing fashion 98-79.

[Titan Q]

#7 Illinois Wesleyan squeaked by winless Wabash 68-57. The injuries are really piling up for the Titans... I think they have 4 major contributors who are out right now with injuries. We'll have to see if they can weather the storm while those guys are out or if they take a few more lumps.

IWU has 4 extremely important perimeter players out right now:

* Starting PG Dylan Overstreet (knee) - 1st Team all-CCIW last year

* SG Jordan Nelson (ankle) - transfer from D1 Evansville

* G/F Alex Rossi (abdominal strain) - transfer from D1 Valparaiso


In addition, SG Brady Zimmer (back) - IWU's per game scoring leader in CCIW play last year, 14 ppg - just recently started practicing for the first time this season and hasn't been much of a factor on the floor yet for the Titans.

These four players, collectively, are the difference between IWU being a legitimate national championship contender and just a pretty good team -- these are all big-time difference makers.  Overstreet is just a really good floor general and leader, but also a big scoring threat.  Nelson and Rossi both earned D1 full rides because they are elite shooters.  And Zimmer can score via the 3-point shot or dribble penetration.

The good news for IWU fans is that Overstreet, Rossi, and Nelson are expected to be back by late-December/CCIW time.

The 5th key player out right now is 6-8/245 C Mike Marietti (knee).  Many close to the program felt strongly that Marietti would be the starting 5 this year.  If not a starter, probably a 15-20 minute per game reserve.  Marietti could return in mid-January...not quite sure.  His return would be gravy...to me, the perimeter guys are the priority.

IWU has 10 days off now before facing #4 Wash U -- will be interesting to see if any of those 4 perimeter guys are back for that game.

[John Gleich]

These four players, collectively, are the difference between IWU being a legitimate national championship contender and just a pretty good team -- these are all big-time difference makers. 

IWU's depth, especially on the perimeter, is staggering this year. It's amazing that they can have as many good perimeter players out... and still be "just a pretty good team!"