Top 25 talk

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (Complete)

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	611	UW-Stevens Point	7-0	def. #8 UW-Whitewater, 79-67; won at St. John's, 71-51
#2	602	Wooster	7-0	won at Wabash, 54-41
#3	558	Illinois Wesleyan	6-1	won at Chicago, 80-61
#4	537	Cabrini	8-0	IDLE
#5	511	Williams	7-1	IDLE
#6	481	Virginia Wesleyan	7-1	LOST to #27 Christopher Newport, 80-83
#7	466	Amherst	7-1	won at Brandeis, 75-70; won at T#33 Babson, 90-77
#8	462	UW-Whitewater	5-2	LOST at #1 UW-Stevens Point, 67-79
#9	396	St. Mary's (Md.)	5-3	LOST to DeSales, 70-80; LOST at Mary Washington, 64-66
#10	358	Washington U.	6-2	def. Coe, 62-59
#11	322	WPI	9-1	won at Colby-Sawyer, 85-66; def. Keene State, 88-69
#12	307	St. Thomas	6-1	won at Macalester, 78-55; def. Hamline, 75-52; def. Bethany Lutheran, 92-57
#13	280	Wittenberg	7-1	won at Denison, 97-69
#14	247	Calvin	7-2	def. Finlandia, 106-56
#15	214	Augustana	7-1	def. Central, 79-57; def. MacMurray, 100-69
#16	212	St. Norbert	5-1	won at Cornell, 81-70
#17	176	Marietta	7-1	won at Heidelberg, 82-80
#18	163	Middlebury	6-2	IDLE
#19	151	UW-Stout	7-2	LOST at UW-River Falls, 64-70
#20	134	Mary Hardin-Baylor	3-3	LOST at Concordia (Texas), 93-96
#21	131	Wesley	6-1	IDLE
#22	120	Wheaton (Ill.)	6-3	def. Alma, 89-70
#23	110	Guilford	8-0	def. Methodist, 68-66
#24	90	SUNY-Purchase	7-0	IDLE
#25	68	Colorado College	5-1	LOST at Northern Colo., 57-96

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	57	Eastern Connecticut	7-1	IDLE
#27	53	Christopher Newport	7-1	won at #6 Virginia Wesleyan, 83-80
#28	35	Emory	6-3	LOST at Oglethorpe, 86-97
#29	28	DePauw	5-3	LOST to Rose-Hulman, 61-64
#30	26	Catholic	4-3	LOST at Randolph-Macon, 63-80
#31	21	Whitworth	4-2	IDLE
#32	19	Southern Vermont	6-2	LOST at Union, 75-95
T#33	18	Texas-Dallas	5-1	LOST at Trinity (Texas), 58-63
T#33	18	Babson	7-2	LOST to #7 Amherst, 77-90
#35	17	Albertus Magnus	7-0	IDLE
#36	15	Brockport State	4-1	IDLE
#37	14	Augsburg	4-3	LOST at Gustavus Adolphus, 54-74; LOST at Concordia-Moorhead, 57-68
#38	11	Scranton	5-2	LOST to Merchant Marine, 83-86
T#39	10	Stevenson	6-1	IDLE
T#39	10	Baldwin Wallace	5-1	IDLE
T#41	9	North Central (Ill.)	6-2	won at Wilberforce, 78-59; won at Bridgewater (Va.), 60-51; won at Eastern Mennonite, 70-68
T#41	9	Springfield	7-2	won at Westfield State, 67-59; def. Worcester State, 91-49
T#41	9	Dickinson	6-1	IDLE
#44	8	John Carroll	6-1	won at Capital, 81-67
#45	7	Hampden-Sydney	5-3	def. Randolph, 60-56
T#46	5	Defiance	7-0	def. Transylvania, 78-50
T#46	5	New York U.	6-1	LOST at Stevens, 65-68
T#46	5	Bowdoin	9-0	won at Maine Maritime, 92-44; def. Maine-Farmington, 59-53
T#49	3	Dubuque	7-0	def. North Central (Minn.), 93-57
T#49	3	Alvernia	5-2	IDLE
#51	2	Ohio Wesleyan	7-2	won at Anderson, 70-59; won at Hiram, 69-67
#52	1	Centre	5-2	IDLE

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

It's time to get off the St. Mary's bandwagon.  I don't know what happened between last year and this one.  They've got among the best returning talent in the country, but they're not playing well.  A very good team, but they'll have to figure something out soon to really be a contender.

It's can't  be a Sampson situation with Laguerre's hair can it?



(Also, I just found out I'm in the picture on St. Mary's basketball homepage right now.  Funny.)

[ronk]

For the long time posters here, your thoughts on the move up of St. Mary of MD, with a gain in points  AFTER loosing a day earlier to an unranked team.  I had watched St. Mary play live in the Stevenson Hoopsville Tourny and wondered about their rankings afterwards.

That loss is during "next week."

The poll is for games through 12/8. They moved up last week... but after their loss Monday, they'll most likely lose points next week.

Technically, I think their record on the Top 25 should read 5-1, not 5-2 (since the second loss came after the Sunday deadline).

John Gleich reffed the Pitt-Greensburg-Juniata game tonight; is that you?

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

It's time to get off the St. Mary's bandwagon.  I don't know what happened between last year and this one.  They've got among the best returning talent in the country, but they're not playing well.  A very good team, but they'll have to figure something out soon to really be a contender.

It's can't  be a Sampson situation with Laguerre's hair can it?



(Also, I just found out I'm in the picture on St. Mary's basketball homepage right now.  Funny.)

Really? You have never seen a team lose two games in a row? DeSales is certainly a headscratcher, though DeSales has been one of the winningest programs in the country in the last 11 years, and they lost to a seemingly much better Mary Wash team that is playing very well especially at home. Mary Wash plays VWC Tuesday night.

Not sure this time of year after two games they are deserving of that comment. I still have them in my Top 25.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

It's time to get off the St. Mary's bandwagon.  I don't know what happened between last year and this one.  They've got among the best returning talent in the country, but they're not playing well.  A very good team, but they'll have to figure something out soon to really be a contender.

It's can't  be a Sampson situation with Laguerre's hair can it?



(Also, I just found out I'm in the picture on St. Mary's basketball homepage right now.  Funny.)

Really? You have never seen a team lose two games in a row? DeSales is certainly a headscratcher, though DeSales has been one of the winningest programs in the country in the last 11 years, and they lost to a seemingly much better Mary Wash team that is playing very well especially at home. Mary Wash plays VWC Tuesday night.

Not sure this time of year after two games they are deserving of that comment. I still have them in my Top 25.

Well, I had them in the Top 5.  Even in wins they haven't played like it.  I'm not doubting the talent or the potential, certainly Top 25 is worthwhile, but I'm no longer expecting them to make waves this season, unless something changes between now and February, they're just underachieving this year.

[John Gleich]

For the long time posters here, your thoughts on the move up of St. Mary of MD, with a gain in points  AFTER loosing a day earlier to an unranked team.  I had watched St. Mary play live in the Stevenson Hoopsville Tourny and wondered about their rankings afterwards.

That loss is during "next week."

The poll is for games through 12/8. They moved up last week... but after their loss Monday, they'll most likely lose points next week.

Technically, I think their record on the Top 25 should read 5-1, not 5-2 (since the second loss came after the Sunday deadline).

John Gleich reffed the Pitt-Greensburg-Juniata game tonight; is that you?

Did I he do a good job?

It isn't me... but, ironically, I just found out (last week) that there's someone masquerading as me who's got a SWEET name who is also an NCAA ref out in Pennsylvania.


I was asked by another poster if I worked for his company, because he saw my name there too. I hadn't done a google search for my name in a while, but when I did, I found a few more "mes" including the guy above.

[nescac1]

I'm surprised that 9-0 Bowdoin is not getting a bit more love in the D3 hoops top 25, they seem to deserve a spot at the tail end of the top 25 rankings, not way down at the bottom of the ARV.  Bowdoin is from a power conference, has a few solid wins under its belt vs. Bates and Babson, and is one of a fairly small handful of undefeated teams left.  The Polar Bears have shown in the past that they have talent, and they are always well-coached.  I find particularly cryptic that the following teams are still ranked above Bowdoin: a two-loss Babson team that Bowdoin beat by double-digits, Albertus Magnus, which has feasted on an extremely weak schedule and which always posts a gaudy record before falling to good teams, and a whole slew of three loss teams which seem to be earning votes on big name programs / past reputation / pre-season expectations (St. Mary's, Augsburg, Emory, Depauw, Catholic, Hampden-Sydney). 

The top five teams look exactly right to me and they seem to be the class of D-3 this season.  In fact I'd be very surprised if one of those five did not ultimately emerge victorious in Salem; all seem pretty loaded, albeit save for Illinois Wesleyan, none appear deep enough to sustain a major injury.  I do think Wash U. may be a bit overrated, being placed above a lot of really good one-loss teams like St. Thomas, Wittinberg, Augustana, Wesley, and so on.  With no wins vs. a top 25 team, a loss to a non-top-25 team, and the blow-out loss to IWU (I wouldn't punish a team for losing to IWU, but losing by 25 is another story), I don't see why they are ranked so highly.  I think another case of pre-season expectations exceeding actual performance to date, as they seem to lack any depth at all this season beyond the top four players ... to me, Bowdoin's resume as of now is a lot stronger than Wash. U.'s, in fact. 

[WUPHF]

I do think Wash U. may be a bit overrated, being placed above a lot of really good one-loss teams like St. Thomas, Wittenberg, Augustana, Wesley, and so on.  With no wins vs. a top 25 team, a loss to a non-top-25 team, and the blow-out loss to IWU (I wouldn't punish a team for losing to IWU, but losing by 25 is another story), I don't see why they are ranked so highly.  I think another case of pre-season expectations exceeding actual performance to date, as they seem to lack any depth at all this season beyond the top four players ...

I would have to agree with this.  Depth is a definitely problem, though I would give the team five or six rather than four.  The team looked strong through the first few games and did beat a previously ranked DePauw squad, but has not played particularly well since November.  They nearly lost to Coe College over the weekend at home.

They may begin to slide down the rankings unless they beat Wheaton on January 2nd.

[ronk]

For the long time posters here, your thoughts on the move up of St. Mary of MD, with a gain in points  AFTER loosing a day earlier to an unranked team.  I had watched St. Mary play live in the Stevenson Hoopsville Tourny and wondered about their rankings afterwards.

That loss is during "next week."

The poll is for games through 12/8. They moved up last week... but after their loss Monday, they'll most likely lose points next week.

Technically, I think their record on the Top 25 should read 5-1, not 5-2 (since the second loss came after the Sunday deadline).

John Gleich reffed the Pitt-Greensburg-Juniata game tonight; is that you?

Did I he do a good job?

It isn't me... but, ironically, I just found out (last week) that there's someone masquerading as me who's got a SWEET name who is also an NCAA ref out in Pennsylvania.


I was asked by another poster if I worked for his company, because he saw my name there too. I hadn't done a google search for my name in a while, but when I did, I found a few more "mes" including the guy above.

  I didn't watch the game, so I don't know how good a job that he did. Just was checking the box score of Landmark Conference foe Juniata and noticed his name.

[KnightSlappy]

I think Guilford is a questionable choice at #17. They're 8-0, but I'm having a hard time finding a single result on their schedule that is commensurate with that ranking. Perhaps a two-point home win over Randolph-Macon is that (though Macon isn't a ranked team, and a two-point home win would suggest they're basically even teams), but other than that they have some close calls against some poor competition.

Their last three games are now:

Overtime at NC Wesleyan
2-pt home win vs. Methodist
1-pt road win at Shenandoah

[Gregory Sager]

I do think Wash U. may be a bit overrated, being placed above a lot of really good one-loss teams like St. Thomas, Wittenberg, Augustana, Wesley, and so on.  With no wins vs. a top 25 team, a loss to a non-top-25 team, and the blow-out loss to IWU (I wouldn't punish a team for losing to IWU, but losing by 25 is another story), I don't see why they are ranked so highly.  I think another case of pre-season expectations exceeding actual performance to date, as they seem to lack any depth at all this season beyond the top four players ...

I would have to agree with this.  Depth is a definitely problem, though I would give the team five or six rather than four.  The team looked strong through the first few games and did beat a previously ranked DePauw squad, but has not played particularly well since November.  They nearly lost to Coe College over the weekend at home.

They may begin to slide down the rankings unless they beat Wheaton on January 2nd.

Wheaton's having its own problems right now, though. Their sixth man and top perimeter threat, senior guard Michael Kvam, was just dismissed from the team. Since the WC @ WUSTL game will be played in St. Louis, I think that the Bears will be a solid favorite.

[madzillagd]

Was able to catch the Cabrini game online yesterday and having now seen 4 or the top 5 teams it struck me how different the style of play is.  I've only caught bits and pieces of UW-SP and not a whole game yet, so I still need to see them.  I think the first place vote Cabrini received may be stretching it a bit given their defensive prowess or lack thereof, although given their schedule they very well might win out just outscoring everyone in their path.  Cabrini/Williams are definitely looking to outscore teams versus clamping down on the defensive end.

Here's a breakdown of the top 5 teams

                PPG     FG%      3%        FT%    OPP PPG     FG%    3%     FT%
UW-SP      81.9    58.6       54.7      65.9           59.9    40.7    26.6    71.5
Wooster    69.0    42.1       34.6      78.3           61.0    42.4    31.2    58.2
IWU          87.5    51.6       47.7      71.0           65.1    38.7    31.1    69.4
Cabrini      94.2    50.6       40.3      83.1           80.0    44.9    36.5    67.5
Williams    94.9    54.4       42.5      79.2           75.6    42.0    33.7    66.7 

[WUPHF]

Wheaton's having its own problems right now, though. Their sixth man and top perimeter threat, senior guard Michael Kvam, was just dismissed from the team. Since the WC @ WUSTL game will be played in St. Louis, I think that the Bears will be a solid favorite.

Point well taken.  I did read about the dismissal on the CCIW thread.

It is speculation on my part, but I am thinking that a win over Wheaton may still prevent WUSTL from sliding (or may cushion the fall) if other Top 25 times continue to play well and knowing that WUSTL only has two other SLIAC teams on the calender to bolster their credentials before conference season begins.

Of course, if WUSTL plays like they played against Coe, a win over Webster may not be a safe conclusion.

[nescac1]

Stevens-Point's statistical dominance is pretty darn impressive.  Especially when you consider that they have played a strong schedule, including double-digit wins over Whitewater and Hope.  The next four games are very tough for Stevens-Point: St. Thomas, Whitman, Whitworth, and North Central, all good teams.  In my mind they are already the favorite, but if they win those four, they become the overwhelming favorite.  Shooting 54.7 percent from three, while holding your opponent to 26.6 percent, is absolutely insane.  Steven-Point is, right now, sinking threes at better than DOUBLE the rate of its opponents. A recipe for easy victories ... That can't possibly continue, especially in light of the upcoming schedule, but even through only seven games, that is insane.  And Stevens-Point certainly has the historical success to suggest that its crazy-hot shooting is not just an early-season fluke.  Tillema and Haas are very, very difficult covers. 

Wooster's stats are by far the least impressive of the top five, and they appear to lack much of an inside presence this year. They seem like a top-15 team, but not really a top-five team, at this point -- 42 percent from the field, even vs. a very good schedule to date, is not very good, and reflects the fact that they are heavily reliant on perimeter players to score.  I wonder how a loss (to a non D-3 team, so hard to judge) will affect the ranking. 

What scares me as a non-Cabrini fan about Cabrini is that Walton-Moss has proven, again and again, that he can carry the team on his back in big games vs. top-notch opponents.  He is so good that Cabrini can beat anyone on any given day.  But Cabrini does seem very, very small, which can't help on the defensive end. 

Based on early-season results, I'd say, going into the holidays, that Stevens Point, IWU, and Williams, in that order, are the top three, followed very closely by Cabrini and Amherst.  Any of those five teams are talented enough to be a major threat to win a D3 title in what appears to be a very top-heavy year. 

[madzillagd]

Nescac1 - Having seen 2 1/2 of the Wooster games they definitely are a team that is grinding out victories rather than blowing people away with a huge talent edge.  I don't expect much of an impact from the non-D3 loss but even if they drop just a couple spots I think it may be appropriate based on what I've seen.  While he's not going to blow anybody away with his production, I will say watching Kipfer come off the bench in all his Thor-like glory and bust his butt for 18 mins in a game is about the most entertaining thing I've watched all year.