Top 25 talk

[hplc2222]

It happened before. Here are the teams, 23-36 who you said Stockton has to beat out in a vote,  their record through this morning, and who they play through sunday night and their records.
All the games are conference games, where anything can happen.

If Stockton is sitting at 13-2 Sunday night, having played only 6 games at home all season, with only the 2 road losses by a combined 3 points, they should get in the Top 25.

23   Albertus Magnus----------11-1   - saturday at st joes 7-6
24   Oglethorpe----------------13-1   - saturday at berry 3-10   
25   Colorado College----------9-2 -  friday at schreniner 7-7, saturday at texas lutheran 5-8
26  Christopher Newport -------10-4 - saturday marymount 11-3
27  Whitworth--------------------10-3  - friday at george fox 9-4, saturday at linfield 2-11
28  Brockport State--------------9-1 - friday oswego state 10-3, saturday at cortland state 9-4
29  Marietta--------------------- 10-4 - saturday at john carrol 10-4
30  Emory-------------------------9-3 - friday carnegie mellon 7-5, sunday case western reserve 9-3
31  DePauw ----------------------11-3 saturday ohio wesleyan 11-3
32  William Paterson-------------11-3  saturday at rutgers camden 3-12
33  Dickinson---------------------12-2 - saturdy at haverford 5-7
34  Springfield--------------------11-3 - saturday at mit 10-3,
35  Texas-Dallas -----------------10-1 - thursday mary hardon baylor 8-5 , saturday concordi 10-3
36  Richard Stockton-------------12-2 - saturday at ramapo 7-8

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

I had Richard Stockton 15th on my ballot in the fan poll this week so obviously I feel they're a quality team. But you must understand that you can't just look at a team in a vacuum, all teams must be looked at and you have to compare not just the record but the schedule.

Based on your statements about 13 wins and 2 or fewer losses, I'm sure you are championing Dubuque as well... they were one of three teams that fit that category last Sunday yet they received fewer votes (6) than RS (14). By my count there could be over 20 teams with 13 wins and no more than 2 losses by Sunday... there's already 9 as of this moment (1 UW-Stevens Point, 2 Wooster, 3 Cabrini, 4 Illinois Wesleyan, 5 WPI... 13 Augustana, 24 Oglethorpe, T40 Dubuque, 42 St Vincent)
Other teams that could reach that 13-2 or better mark by Sunday include NYU (10 votes) and Husson (0).

[hplc2222]

I understand and am aware of the complexity. Here is another analysis

As of this morning there are 6 undefeated teams, 10 one loss teams,  21 two loss teams, and 32 three loss team.(69 teams). 45 teams received votes last vote

an additional 44 teams have 4 losses

here is where we sit right at this moment of posting:

undeated 6 teams    - 5 teams recieved votes, 4 in top 25
1 loss - 10 teams    - 10 teams received votes, 7 in top 25
2 loss - 21 teams    - 13 teams recieved votes,10 in top 25
3 loss - 32 teams     - 10 teams recieved votes, 3 in top 25
4 loss - 44 teams     - 4 teams received votes, 0 in top 25
5 loss------------------2 teams recieved votes, 1 in top 25
6 loss-------------------1 team recieved vote , 0 in top 25


1   UW-Stevens Point -------15-0
2   Wooster ---------------------13-1   
3   Cabrini------------------------13-0   
4   Illinois Wesleyan----------13-2      
5   WPI----------------------------13-1   
6   Amherst----------------------11-2      
7   Washington U.------------10-2      
8   UW-Whitewater-----------13-2      
9   Wittenberg------------------12-2   
10   Williams---------------------11-2   
11   St. Thomas-----------------11-2   
12   St. Norbert------------------12-1      
13   Augustana------------------13-2      
14   Wesley-----------------------12-1   
15   Messiah----------------------12-1      
16   St. Mary's (Md.)-----------11-3   
17   SUNY-Purchase-----------11-0      
18   Virginia Wesleyan--------11-3      
19   Bowdoin----------------------12-0   
20   Mary Washington---------12-2   
21   Wheaton (Ill.)---------------10-5      
22   Ohio Wesleyan------------11-3      
23   Albertus Magnus----------11-1   - saturday at st joes 7-6
24   Oglethorpe-------------------13-1   - saturday at berry 3-10   
25   Colorado College-----------9-2 -  friday at schreniner 7-7, saturday at texas lutheran 5-8
26  Christopher Newport -----10-4 - saturday marymount 11-3
27  Whitworth--------------------10-3  - friday at george fox 9-4, saturday at linfield 2-11
28  Brockport State-------------9-1 - friday oswego state 10-3, saturday at cortland state 9-4
29  Marietta-----------------------10-4 - saturday at john carrol 10-4
30  Emory--------------------------9-3 - friday carnegie mellon 7-5, sunday case western reserve 9-3
31  DePauw ----------------------11-3 saturday ohio wesleyan 11-3
32  William Paterson----------11-3  saturday at rutgers camden 3-12
33  Dickinson--------------------12-2 - saturday at haverford 5-7
34  Springfield-------------------11-3 - saturday at mit 10-3,
35  Texas-Dallas ---------------10-1 - thursday mary hardon baylor 8-5 , saturday concordi 10-3
36  Richard Stockton----------12-2 - saturday at ramapo 7-8
37  New York University------11-1
38  Hope----------------------------8-6
39  Babson------------------------10-4
40  Dubuque----------------------14-0
41  Calvin--------------------------10-4
42  St. Vincent------------------12-2
43  UW-Platteville--------------10-5
44  Oswego State--------------10-3
45  Stevenson-------------------11-3

[hplc2222]

I guess I really enjoyed Richard Stockton's run to the finals in 2009. Their schedule that year was not that different. Thet lost 2 regular season games that year, Middlebury 61-58 on a neutral court, and at TCNJ 79-73. They won the NJAC tourney, and were ranked I believe in the Top 10  at the start of the NCAA tourney. They got 2 homes games I think in the tourney.

Thats the key, to be ranked high enough you get to play lower ranked teams you can beat, especially if you get home games in the tourney.

This Stockton team is not as good because they dont have an offensive point guard like lancioni.

However their defense and rebounding is very good and have a nack to go on long runs in games by spreading the ball around, threes and drives.

Even in the games it looks like they won by 5 or 6 points or so, most of the games they had huge leads in and teams came back late after Stockton unloaded the bench in the last 5 minutes.

[Greek Tragedy]

I don't see RS jumpimg 11 teams to get into the Top 25. William Paterson is ahead of them and they beat RS, right? WP has one more loss and they've lost by a combined 7 points, I think.

[hplc2222]

I understand but didnt a team just drop from 14 to out of the Top 25,..... and didnt Stockton just 2 weeks ago go from like 37 to 23 in one vote?

William Paterson just lost at home to Ramapo, allowing them to shoot 58.3% from the field on their home court.

Stockton plays at Ramapo this Saturday. This game is key to proving what RS can do.

Take a team like Colorado College, was in the Top 25, dropped out, and got back in, jumping many teams in last weeks vote.

Things like this happen.

You read everything I wrote today, even on the previous page?

They go to 13-2 having had only 6 home games, and 2 losses by a combined 3 points on the road, so close to 15-0

Lots of conference games to play for every team in the nation yet, including conference tourneys.

I understand we have to wait and see.

Do you think it was just the presence of Lancioni at point guard in 2009 that gave voters the willingness to ran k Stockton high?

[hplc2222]

Let me preface this by saying I do not think it is right or fair to talk about individual D3 players. These are students.
(and I am not convinced it is right to talk about D1 players even)

D3 basketball is very intresting though and highly competitive in nature.

Richard Stockton's top 5 players in the 2009/2009 finals season

omar smith 12.8 51.2%, jerome hubbard 12.8 ppg 39%, santini lancioni 12.6 ppg 38%, michael farrow 11.1 ppg 51.6%, kai massaquoi 10.7 ppg 56.1%

Richard Stockton's top 5 players in this 2013/2014 season

josh blamon 16.6 ppg 54.6%, nnamdi usuwa 13.1 ppg 56.5%, james williams 10.9 40.8%, rich surh 9.4 41.3%, kevin johnson 8.6 41.7%

Richard Stockton is hitting 3's at 39.1%, 109 for 279, their overall fg % is 46.3

Josh Blamon is a great player for Stockton. But if you watch the games he doesn't hog the ball. Stockton likes to run and drive, and pass the ball around, and they have confidence in any player to hit a three, and that is how they are winning these games with runs. ( what is impressive is it is on the road, where some like me would say or think the rim could be messed with a few milmeters here and there to throw off a road team)

King Gilchrist on William Paterson is another great player in the NJAC, scored 34 points last night in a loss.

Stockton's "Team" is better.

Another point of all this is that by the end of the season there will be around 40 teams in the nation with 6 or less loses, and less than 25 will be in the Top 25

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

I understand but didnt a team just drop from 14 to out of the Top 25,..... and didnt Stockton just 2 weeks ago go from like 37 to 23 in one vote?

They did make a big jump... but that was during the holidays when there were 3 weeks (and more games than usual) between polls.

A line that gets used a lot around here during the end of football season when discussing who should get the at-large bids... "don't lose to X and we're not having this discussion". Right now, I think that applies to the top 25 poll and losing to Montclair St. Had they won that game they'd be solidly in the rankings but because they lost, they opened up the possibility to be left out.

The good thing about basketball is that there's plenty more games than football in a season so keep winning and they'll eventually climb their way back in, it just won't be as rapidly as you'd hope. If they could knock off a highly ranked team in the near future they'd get a little boost, but just running through a ho-hum stretch of opponents usually isn't enough to have a pollster jump Team A over other teams that are doing the same thing.

[hplc2222]

ok, but Stocktons 2nd loss in the season, in 2008/2009, in the middle of the regular season, to )TCNJ  (formerly Trenton State), that season, didnt drop them that much , but to only between ranking 15-20.

Unless you are Stevens Point this season, you probably are not going undefeated.

Alot of the teams that have votes, have bad home loses, un-like Stockton

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

You referenced the Richard Stockton run in 2009... and that helps me with this point. Do you know how many wins NJAC teams have had in the NCAA tournament since then? None. Not one. Even when hosting games the NJAC can't get out of the first round.

Someone used a great word with me when it comes to voting in a top 25 (which again, I do): trust. You have to trust a team's record is more than smoke and mirrors. You have to trust when a team goes on a slide, their coach and the atmosphere created for the team will pull them out with no problems. You have to trust that a team won't face a sub par team and lay an egg (though, that is a tough one for anyone sometimes). Trust is paramount.

And as a result, I don't trust teams in the NJAC. I don't trust them because their regular seasons haven't added up to much success in the postseason recently. I don't trust they won't lose a game that has everyone scratching their heads. I don't trust that the top of the NJAC is better than half of the conferences in the country. I don't trust that out of conference scheduling results in good teams versus easy schedules - thus their SOS tends to be pretty low.

Out of conference, Richard Stockton has played one team with a decent record: Plattsburgh State (8-3). In conference, they lost to William Paterson who lost to Brooklyn this season. They also lost to Montclair State whose resume has been reported.

I understand you think Richard Stockton is a Top 25 team, but there is enough concern for me to not rank them. However, I will keep watching the Ospreys to see what happens in the weeks ahead and maybe I will change my mind. Heck, I do that every week when moving teams in and out of my ballot.

And per your thought that a lot of teams have bad home losses... give me your examples.

[hplc2222]

well, thats ok, just your opinion. but afterall saying all that, why was Stockton so highly ranked in 2009 finals run?
What is the difference between them this year and that year?

[GnacBballFan]

Hey Dave, NJAC almost had one win in the Ncaa's until this happened

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vLVqtEcB_ic

Couldn't help myself

[Greek Tragedy]

well, thats ok, just your opinion. but afterall saying all that, why was Stockton so highly ranked in 2009 finals run?
What is the difference between them this year and that year?

5 years.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Five seasons!

The rest of the conference... Stockton had won three games the year before and made it to the Elite 8... as I said, not one NJAC team (even highly rated Rampao last year) has won a single game in the next four NCAA tournament: 0-7 in that span.

Stockton was also 27-2 entering the NCAA tournament that year and had played teams like Middlebury (L), Widener (W), Carnegie Mellon (W), and Scranton (W) in out of conference play. That was a far better schedule than this season's. The conference was also better. You had Montclair State and William Paterson with 20+ win seasons. Of course Stocton's only loss in conference that year was to eventual 10-15 TCNJ (guh!), but by that point they had been 3-1 against far better opponents and had risen well in the Top 25.

And Gnac... I know... but they didn't, did they . And so the record difference is 0-7 vs. 1-6 if that doesn't happen

[Pat Coleman]

well, thats ok, just your opinion. but afterall saying all that, why was Stockton so highly ranked in 2009 finals run?
What is the difference between them this year and that year?

5 years.

Exactly. Chuck McBreen talked about what he thought some of the differences are in our conversation at the D3hoops.com Classic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFKGcrPQmZk