Top 25 talk

[Pat Coleman]

At the risk of igniting another flood of posts, two things.

1. This is not really a game of 30 vs. 32 Remember that Richard Stockton lost once already since this poll came out, which people have already mentioned. If the voters voted today, Richard Stockton would not have those votes.
2. Your list of the so-called 60-best teams is standings, not rankings. Just because they are the 60 teams with the fewest losses in Division III means nothing. Otherwise, 9-6 Bates would have gotten crushed going into unbeaten Husson's gym.

I'll let others decide if a conference that hasn't won an NCAA Tournament game in four years is truly nationally relevant.

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

As far as conferences being nationally relevant... unless you're the NESCAC (who always seems to be nationally competitive in just about every sport) or maybe UAA (who is as close to a national conference geographically as D3 has) I don't think any conference is truly nationally relevant. Obviously having a team do well will garner a little attention, but there are more than 40 conferences and over 400 teams in D3 so it really takes some effort to stand out on a national level.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

The five best conferences that get national recognition because their teams always before in the regular season AND THE POSTSESASON are the UAA, NESCAC, WIAC, CCIW and ODAC. If your team is not in one of those conferences, you have to prove more than just being in a conference. Sorry, but the NJAC has NOTHING to stake a claim to now or in recent memory.

[mailsy]

Just putting my thoughts out there on the "talk". Just to give some perspective on the whole "Top 25" I went back to 2008-09 when the current coach took over at Cabrini and the former PnAC became the CSAC. In the 8-9 preseason poll Cabrini wasn't even a thought. In the first poll someone gave them a 25th vote to give them "1" point and were the 51st rank team in the poll and then didn't show up in the poll again the rest of the year. Only team to get any additional votes that year was Gwynedd Mercy(4 or T39). GMC won the conference. I asked a lot of questions about Cavs record and why they weren't getting votes and started to understand a little more about the D3 landscape. The answer was they hadn't done anything and the conference hadn't done anything. Cavs finished 25-6.

In 9-10 preseason poll Cavs had no votes. Gwynedd did(4). In the first poll of the new year Cavs got 5 votes and at the time were 3-0. Wk2, Got 18 votes and were 33 team in poll and were 6-0. Wk3 23, 32nd 6-0. Wk4 2, 39th 7-1. Wk5 1, 44th 6-0. Wk6 1, 40th 9-1. Wk7 32, 26th, 12-1. Wk8 38, 26th, 15-1, Wk9 12, 29th, 16-2(lost on the road to a team that was 7-10) Wk10 cracked the top 25 ranked 24th, 58 pts, 18-2. Wk 11 90, 22nd 20-2. Wk 12 142, 21st, 23-2. Wk 13 176, 20th 25-2. Won the conference and was on a roll going into the NCAA tourney. They were matched up against the 16th team in the nation Randolph Macon. I thought they're a good team but so is Cabrini. Cavs can win this. They proceeded to get blown out by 29. Randy Mac went on to the final 4 that year. In the final poll they dropped out of the top 25 and got 14, 33rd and finished 25-3. I realized there are good teams out there that play in much better conferences and the Cavaliers had a lot of work ahead of them.

2010-11 preseason they got 32 votes and ranked 32nd. They didn't get any more votes until week 13, 3 votes, 43rd and were 22-5. At one point in the season they won 14 in a row and still didn't get any votes. They didn't deserve any at the time. They really hadn't proved themselves and neither did the conference. They proceeded by beating a New Jersey City team that was ranked ahead of them and got to the sweet 16 that year. Finished 19th in the poll with 129 votes and were 24-6.

2011-12 Preseason started off with a bang they were bringing a lot back and were ranked 14th. I really wasn't sure if they should have been ranked that high, but these Top 25 voters seem to know things and I've learned to trust much of what they put out there now. They stayed in the top 25. After being ranked 14th they moved up went down to 13th after an out of conf last second loss at Centre College and got up to #5 before the tourney. They were a good team. They got to the final four. Beat IWU(sorry TitanQ) to get to the final and lost by 3 to Wisc WW. They finished 2nd in the polls and deservedly so. That year there were 4 teams with 8 losses in the final poll. 1 knocked out round 1, 1 each in the sweet 16, elite 8 and final four. Voters saw what the teams did and got the votes for it.

2012-13 Cavs were ranked 10th in preseason poll and proceeded to drop in polls than eventually out. Than got no votes at all until week 12. They got 13 votes and ranked 29th. They were 20-5. Week 14: 10 30th 22-5. They got into the NCAA tourney and proceeded to win three road games against "better" competition. They weren't supposed to win these games but they did and the voters recognized them again. Final standings they were ranked 13th.

This year they started out 19th. They won 2 games at the Hoopsville Invitational (unreportedly there were some locals that asked them if they were ready for this scene?) They were the only team to come out unscathed. Now they've gone up the polls to number 3. They are a very good team. Are they the number 3 team in nation? The voters seem to think that they are. I don't know. But I'll trust there judgment. 

[northb]

As far as conferences being nationally relevant... unless you're the NESCAC (who always seems to be nationally competitive in just about every sport) or maybe UAA (who is as close to a national conference geographically as D3 has) I don't think any conference is truly nationally relevant. Obviously having a team do well will garner a little attention, but there are more than 40 conferences and over 400 teams in D3 so it really takes some effort to stand out on a national level.

In a different way, Calvin and Hope are internationally relevant with Rivalry games simulcast to over 80 sites, from Austria to Zeek's Pizza in Washington.

http://www.calvinhope.com/gather/

[wooscotsfan]

The five best conferences that get national recognition because their teams always before in the regular season AND THE POSTSESASON are the UAA, NESCAC, WIAC, CCIW and ODAC. If your team is not in one of those conferences, you have to prove more than just being in a conference. Sorry, but the NJAC has NOTHING to stake a claim to now or in recent memory.

Dave -- Good list, I would suggest that the NCAC (Wooster, Wittenberg, Ohio Wesleyan) deserves some consideration as well -- perhaps 6th on that list?

Wooster
-11 Years in a Row in the NCAA tournament
-Sweet Sixteen the last 4 Years in a Row (only 1 other D3 team has managed that feat -- Hint: also starts with a "W" )
-Final Four Appearances in 2003, 2007 and 2011 (National Runner-up)
-Best Win Percentage of Any NCAA Team in the 2000's

Wittenberg
-In the NCAA Tournament 5 times in the last 10 Years (remember, Wooster also in each of those years)
-Final Four and National Runner-up in 2006
-Elite Eight in 2012

Ohio Wesleyan
-In the NCAA Tournament 3 times in the last 6 Years (remember, Wooster also in each of those years)

[Greek Tragedy]

Hplc2222,

You are right. It's a big game... in the conference. When I think of the NJAC, I do think WP and RS. It's big because WP has already beaten RS. But, there are still a lot of games left. When the regional ranking come out in three weeks, WP will virtually always be ahead of RS if they win on the road today, simply because of H2H. If RS wins today, they won't get into the Top 25 and I would venture to bet they will actually LOSE votes based on losing on Monday to Brooklyn.

[Pat Coleman]

What hurt Cabrini in 2012-13 is they were not particularly forthcoming with us in the preseason about the status of Aaron Walton-Moss. I think if they'd be willing to say he could come back for the second semester, Cabrini would have gotten much more of a benefit of the doubt. And after AWM's return, they basically only had conference games left, so there was no opportunity to prove themselves for a national ballot.

[mailsy]

What hurt Cabrini in 2012-13 is they were not particularly forthcoming with us in the preseason about the status of Aaron Walton-Moss. I think if they'd be willing to say he could come back for the second semester, Cabrini would have gotten much more of a benefit of the doubt. And after AWM's return, they basically only had conference games left, so there was no opportunity to prove themselves for a national ballot.

Pat,

Absolutely agree. Not arguing the fact. Just that's what the voters had to go on. Voters do a pretty good job of judging the teams that are picked each week. CSAC not a real strong conference. That I am fully aware of. Especially considering that it has less than a .500 winning pct against out of conference teams. Which has been the norm for the conference.

[Titan Q]

As far as conferences go, as of today Massey has the following (for what it's worth)...

1. CCIW
2. UAA
3. WIAC
4. OAC
5. MACC


http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?s=cb2014&sub=11620&c=1

[magicman]

Oh oh we're in trouble now. Richard Stockton has defeated William Paterson 81-57. Someone will be crowing till the cows come home.

[hplc2222]

Stockton should be ranked number 1 , they just beat william paterson 81-57, started so strong defensivly, william paterson only had 5 points in the first 10 minutes. Now Stockton is 14-3, anbd teams in the rankings are losing all over the place.
Stockton for number 1

[sac]

[wooscotsfan]

Final:  DePauw 78  #2 Wooster 74

Wooster drops the road game and this is the third year in a row that they have lost in Greencastle.  Congrats to DePauw and this win keeps them in the NCAC race at 8-2.  Wooster still leads the NCAC at 9-1.  DePauw shot 57% overall from the floor and made 7 out of 11 on three point shots.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I'll just say seeing Cabrini at the Hoopsville Tournament is what is keeping me from ranking them too high.  Like every team they've had the past few years, there is good talent, but not great talent (outside a couple individual stars).  Their real strength comes in preparation and coaching.  Those players are some of the most confident and now experienced guys out there.  That serves them well come tournament time, but it also means they're playing to peak ability most of the season.  They've proven they can maintain it, as difficult as it seems, but it's still a high degree of difficulty.

Personally, I'd rather rank a loaded, but under-performing team like IWU over a Cabrini squad that looks better on the floor than they do on paper.

For me it's a give and take.  Cabrini's model wins games, I'm not sure it's tailor made for rankings.  I don't think there's anyone associated with the program who cares one lick about that trade off.