Top 25 talk

[Greek Tragedy]

I find it odd that the NCAA uses the D3Hoops Top 25 on their website yet doesn't use it as a point of reference for their selection criteria.

Anything for a little extra PR.  They're smart enough to recognize the billion-dollar cash cow that is D3 basketball, and want to milk it for all it's worth.

LOL

+1


In all seriousness. I presume they got permission from The Great and Powerful Oz, I mean Pat (and got paid?) resulting in great publicity for the site.

[mailsy]

Greek,

I was just thinking you should ^TM or ® TGHIJGSTO!!! [ TGHIJGSTO!!!^TM   TGHIJGSTO!!!^® ] 

[Just Bill]

A few years ago the NABC (men's coaches association) stopped doing their national Top 25 poll. In part, because the D3Hoops poll was being used and referenced far more than their own poll, and had a stronger reputation. I imagine the NCAA wanted to still offer some kind of national poll on their website, so D3Hoops is it.

I wish the WBCA (women's coaches association) would drop their poll too. Few schools pay attention to it and it just creates confusion.

[Pat Coleman]

I find it odd that the NCAA uses the D3Hoops Top 25 on their website yet doesn't use it as a point of reference for their selection criteria.

They post all the Top 25 polls done in all divisions. What I don't like is that they use the poll but don't put a title on it.

[Greek Tragedy]

Here you guys go... enjoy: www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2014/01/28/daves-top-25-ballot-week-8/

Please keep posting your link. Thanks!

What are your thoughts on St. Norbert? Their only loss is to Whitewater at home. The MWC is just plain bad with the Green Knights already up four games. Grinnell, Illinois College and Ripon don't strike fear in anyone. Grzesk has them playing very good ball and he has a good track record (great things previously at Lakeland College). Their four NC wins over North Park, Oshkosh, Viterbo and Alma aren't impressive at all. Is it another year of gaudy record and one-and-done in the NCAAs?

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Concerning basketball revenue, I put together a quick, rough calculation on the gross intake for Hope.  Seeing as Hope has lead the nation in attendance for many years, I would assume this is the highest intake of any DIII program by far.

Hope charges:
Reserved seating (1600 seats): $10 for all ages
Bleacher seating (1400 seats): $7 for adults, $5 for under 18
MIAA students, faculty, and staff: No charge

Average attendance 12-13 season: 2748 (.916 capacity)

So assuming 400 freebies, 30% of bleachers under 18, you get basically $20,000 per game.  With 13 home dates in the 12-13 season, that's a total of $260,000 gross.  While that is a big number, I suspect it's break even at best and probably still a net loss (takes a lot of funds to support the building, staff, coaches, etc).

[John Gleich]

Here you guys go... enjoy: www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2014/01/28/daves-top-25-ballot-week-8/

Please keep posting your link. Thanks!

What are your thoughts on St. Norbert? Their only loss is to Whitewater at home. The MWC is just plain bad with the Green Knights already up four games. Grinnell, Illinois College and Ripon don't strike fear in anyone. Grzesk has them playing very good ball and he has a good track record (great things previously at Lakeland College). Their four NC wins over North Park, Oshkosh, Viterbo and Alma aren't impressive at all. Is it another year of gaudy record and one-and-done in the NCAAs?

I feel like we talk about St. Norbert all the time in this discussion...

St. Norbert is considerably better than their competition... but that doesn't necessarily mean that they should keep matriculating up the poll. Just because other teams are losing around them doesn't mean that SNC should keep moving up.

I would have said the same for Dubuque if they stayed undefeated... they shouldn't automatically continue to move up even though other teams around them lose.

Dubuque lost themselves, so it's a moot point.

[smedindy]

Here you guys go... enjoy: www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2014/01/28/daves-top-25-ballot-week-8/

Please keep posting your link. Thanks!

What are your thoughts on St. Norbert? Their only loss is to Whitewater at home. The MWC is just plain bad with the Green Knights already up four games. Grinnell, Illinois College and Ripon don't strike fear in anyone. Grzesk has them playing very good ball and he has a good track record (great things previously at Lakeland College). Their four NC wins over North Park, Oshkosh, Viterbo and Alma aren't impressive at all. Is it another year of gaudy record and one-and-done in the NCAAs?

I feel like we talk about St. Norbert all the time in this discussion...

St. Norbert is considerably better than their competition... but that doesn't necessarily mean that they should keep matriculating up the poll. Just because other teams are losing around them doesn't mean that SNC should keep moving up.

I would have said the same for Dubuque if they stayed undefeated... they shouldn't automatically continue to move up even though other teams around them lose.

Dubuque lost themselves, so it's a moot point.

St. Norbert's is 11th in Massey. So they must be doing something right. While their schedule is in the upper half of D-3, it's not good compared to the others around it. However, they are TCB by beating the teams they should be by the margins they should, and thus are rewarded in that measure.

[Pat Coleman]

Here you guys go... enjoy: www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2014/01/28/daves-top-25-ballot-week-8/

Please keep posting your link. Thanks!

What are your thoughts on St. Norbert? Their only loss is to Whitewater at home. The MWC is just plain bad with the Green Knights already up four games. Grinnell, Illinois College and Ripon don't strike fear in anyone. Grzesk has them playing very good ball and he has a good track record (great things previously at Lakeland College). Their four NC wins over North Park, Oshkosh, Viterbo and Alma aren't impressive at all. Is it another year of gaudy record and one-and-done in the NCAAs?

I feel like we talk about St. Norbert all the time in this discussion...

St. Norbert is considerably better than their competition... but that doesn't necessarily mean that they should keep matriculating up the poll. Just because other teams are losing around them doesn't mean that SNC should keep moving up.

I would have said the same for Dubuque if they stayed undefeated... they shouldn't automatically continue to move up even though other teams around them lose.

Dubuque lost themselves, so it's a moot point.

Agreed about St. Norbert. I feel like they are already too high, frankly.

[mailsy]

Just looking at the poll. I was thinking about a former poster who shall be nameless. The suggestion was that "his" team should be ranked. But the top 25 voters obviously didn't think so. Even from his own region. So the top25 is broken down as such:
The top 2 regions have 5 each in the poll. MidAtlantic(2,9,12,22,25) and the Northeast(3,4,11,16,19). The Great Lakes(5,17,18,23) and MidWest(6,7,8,14) with 4 each. 3 in the West(1,10,15) 2 in the South(21,24) and 1 each in the East(20) and Atlantic(14). ORV: NE-4, MA-3, W-3, GL-3, S-3, E-2, MW-2 & A-2. This will change. But it goes to show that even his region put his team at the lower end of the poll.

On another thought regarding this. I'm impressed with the MidAtlantic teams this year. Maybe someone from the MidAtlantic could win the whole thing this year.

[iwumichigander]

hplc2222 (if we choose to believe him) was a college graduate and (from the dates he claimed for attending Stockton) was 50+ years old.  Absolutely no excuse for his behavior.

He was not a novice.  Scroll through the Atlantic Region NJAC and the "Top 25" he created as a thread.  He was perfectly capable of writing clearly and typing without errors.

[Greek Tragedy]

http://tomaroonandgold.blogspot.com/p/division-iii-mens-basketball-efficiency.html?m=1

Is this the most up-to-date efficency rankings? Dated 12/18/13

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Here you guys go... enjoy: www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2014/01/28/daves-top-25-ballot-week-8/

Dave is the right forum to discuss your blog/top 25?

If so just two things: 1) maybe I missed it but can you point me in the right direction to finding KnightSlappy's rpi? Would love to have a look. 2) what was the reasoning for having Brockport St at #15 and SUNY Purchase not in your top 25, even though Purchase had given Brockport their only loss and were perfect themselves before last night? SOS or RPI? Thanks and sorry if this is the wrong forum to discuss your blog!

Gnac... I wasn't sure if this was the right forum especially since I don't have one particular team in my poll... but I thought I would see if I would be accepted LOL.

As for your question: I was waiting to see what happened in the AMC/Purchase State game to give me a better sense of both of those teams. I just don't trust their conferences or those teams with gaudy records as a result. Remember, AMC lost three times in conference last year - if were really that good that should never happen. Purchase worries me because they have a .478 SOS as of Sunday (Staten Island's is .464 BTW). AMC's is .460. Brockport's is .578. I realize Purchase beat Brockport, but that SOS told me more than the single game did. If Purchase had won, I would have probably put them in the poll next week. Now I will consider AMC instead. Honestly, I have probably 40 teams I am seriously considering each week... far more than I usually have this time of the season, so it has been a challenge each week.

pjunito - you are welcome... I think.

What are your thoughts on St. Norbert? Their only loss is to Whitewater at home. The MWC is just plain bad with the Green Knights already up four games. Grinnell, Illinois College and Ripon don't strike fear in anyone. Grzesk has them playing very good ball and he has a good track record (great things previously at Lakeland College). Their four NC wins over North Park, Oshkosh, Viterbo and Alma aren't impressive at all. Is it another year of gaudy record and one-and-done in the NCAAs?

Here is what I wrote a few weeks ago in my blog:

Honestly, St. Norbert is too high in my poll right now... but again, someone has to fill this spot on the ballot. The team hasn't really played and beaten anyone of note except they played Whitewater and lost. Their conference isn't going to really challenge them (except a team I am not going to mention), so I am going to have to be careful not to move St. Norbert up the poll in the coming weeks just because they are winning.

I followed that with this a week later:

This may be the unsung team of the Midwest Region and Wisconsin. The Green Knights just look good right now. The problem is they never get a break since they play in a conference that is middle of the pack and sit in a geographical area where they know the first weekend of the NCAA tournament is going to be anything but a cupcake. I like St. Norbert because I think they are sneaky good... time will tell if that gut feeling is right.

I know Pat fears they are too far up in the poll and I can understand that fear (as I showed in the first comment), but they are a very good squad who isn't taking bad losses in conference right now. And I think that is the key, they are blowing away their conference when in normal years that sometimes is a battle down to the last weekend and SNC would have already lost a handful of games.

The problem is they never get to prove themselves with a deep run because they usually run into a pretty talented squad in the first or second night of the tournament (they have beaten Hope in the first round in recent years). Sure, they need to win against a really good team in the tournament to stop the skeptics, but they are probably one of the rare teams year in and year out that because of geography never get a semi-easy game or two in the first weekend. They end up always seeing Top 10 talent. If they were in the Mid-Atlantic, East, Atlantic, Northeast or the west side of the South Regions they would probably get more favorable match-ups to let them get a foothold in the tournament.

That all being said, I think the Green Knights this year surprise their skeptics with a big first weekend... though we are five weeks away from even knowing match ups at this point.

On another thought regarding this. I'm impressed with the MidAtlantic teams this year. Maybe someone from the MidAtlantic could win the whole thing this year.

The Mid-Atlantic has shocked me. I knew the CAC would be better, but not this good. Mary Washington has completely changed the complextion in that conference and that is a great sign for the future. I would argue they are a top ten conference this year as they have the best season in conference history. The Centennial has actually become more interesting than I thought it would be, but not for the usual reasons. McDaniel has proven there are some decent teams in there, but the gap from Dickinson down to the rest is still pretty wide. The MAC Commonwealth actually isn't as good at the top as I expected, but they still have very good teams and that conference race is going to be thrilling down to the end. The Landmark is a disappointment. Scranton, Catholic and Juniata just keep tripping up at the wrong time... I don't know if they get two bids this season. However, because of the CAC and the MACC... this region is far better than in recent memory.

As for the question about the SOS and RPI numbers... KnightSlappy has been kind of enough to run reports for me the last two Hoopsville nights so I have the information. When I saw the carnage in my Top 25 this past week, I decided to use those numbers - even if they are not solid just yet - to help me. Seeing major differences in SOS helped me especially for tough choices.

[GnacBballFan]

Thanks for answering the questions Dave! Yes I see where you are coming from on Purchase and Albertus. With regards to Albertus and their 3 losses last yr in conference, that was a completely different team. As an albertus fan PJ will tell you I was never too high on the Falcons last yr. however, with the juco all american transfer Eian Davis, who leads the nation in assists and had 14 against purchase to go with 26 points I believe, as well his juco teammate 6'8 victor Ldujahja(forgive the spelling), this albertus team would beat this yrs team by 20. But that's my opinion and I see why you are thinking that way. Hopefully last nights win over purchase, which looked like it was gonna be a route until albertus couldn't hit free throws, and if they can pull out a win against the JWU team that has won 11 straight will change that. I sound like too much of a homer so I'll stop now lol, but I gotta stick up for my boys, they are legit this yr

[pjunito]

Dave...

Do you take non conference SOS into consideration?  Teams like Purchase, Albertus play in weak conference.. Conference combine record is 77-90, that's TGHIJGSTO!!!  There is nothing Albertus can do about that other than win their games by a healthy margin (Which they have, winning by an average of 16.6 points per game). They played on the road a lot this season and have 3 players who average over 16 points a game. And they have the quickest guard in the nation by far. I don't think you have seen them play Dave. If you have, no way they are not already in your top 25.