Top 25 talk

[Just Bill]

The way the top 25 should work, is if you keep winning and others keep losing you move up.

That would describe standings. Standings are completely objective. Whatever you're record is, it is, and that's where you sit.

These are rankings. Inherently subjective. There's simply no hard and fast, automatic rules that can be applied when 25 people meld their opinion into one.

[D3HoopJunkie]

Pat, I must say that like GNACBballFan I to am fairly new to the D3 scene as a whole. However just to your point on Top 25 NOT moving up and down based on simply winning and losing I must disagree with you. That is exactly what you get with the D1 polls week in and week out. Its who is winning there games and who is losing. Now I realize that there is certainly much more parity within the D1 ranks an amongst the conferences but at the same time I think a perfect example to counter your point for this year in D1 is Wichita State who is currently the #4 ranked team in the country. They play in the Missouri Valley which certainly isnt the "cream of the crop" and yet are ranked #4. They actually have a great RPI but there SOS is definitely down because of there weak conference. I personal thin they are going to run the regular season table.

Just wanted to get your thoughts on this. Simply trying to get a better understanding. Thanks

[Titan Q]

Pat, I must say that like GNACBballFan I to am fairly new to the D3 scene as a whole. However just to your point on Top 25 NOT moving up and down based on simply winning and losing I must disagree with you. That is exactly what you get with the D1 polls week in and week out. Its who is winning there games and who is losing. Now I realize that there is certainly much more parity within the D1 ranks an amongst the conferences but at the same time I think a perfect example to counter your point for this year in D1 is Wichita State who is currently the #4 ranked team in the country. They play in the Missouri Valley which certainly isnt the "cream of the crop" and yet are ranked #4. They actually have a great RPI but there SOS is definitely down because of there weak conference. I personal thin they are going to run the regular season table.

Just wanted to get your thoughts on this. Simply trying to get a better understanding. Thanks

It all comes down to what you want the objective of the D3hoops.com Top 25 to be.  Should it be:

A) A reflection of the teams with the best records?  If that's the case, you just automatically move teams up as they win, and down as they lose.

or

B) A reflection - the best guess of the voters at that given moment - of the top 25 teams, in order?  In other words, if #1 played #2 on a neutral court, the poll would predict #1 to win the game.  If that's the case, then way more goes into it than moving teams up and down based on wins and losses. 


I've always been in the "B" camp.  With the UW-Stevens Point/UW-Whitewater game last night, for example, I don't even consider that an "upset."  UWSP lost on the road, in OT, at the 2nd best team in the WIAC - to me, that is an expected result.  I don't consider the Pointers any less of a team today because of what happened last night.  If I had them #1 before that game, I'd still have them #1.  By the same token, if Cabrini beats Cairn Monday, I won't consider the Cavaliers a better team than I did before the game was played.

I believe you have to dig into wins and losses carefully, factoring in strength of schedule, when you put a Top 25 poll together.

[John Gleich]

Pat, I must say that like GNACBballFan I to am fairly new to the D3 scene as a whole. However just to your point on Top 25 NOT moving up and down based on simply winning and losing I must disagree with you. That is exactly what you get with the D1 polls week in and week out. Its who is winning there games and who is losing. Now I realize that there is certainly much more parity within the D1 ranks an amongst the conferences but at the same time I think a perfect example to counter your point for this year in D1 is Wichita State who is currently the #4 ranked team in the country. They play in the Missouri Valley which certainly isnt the "cream of the crop" and yet are ranked #4. They actually have a great RPI but there SOS is definitely down because of there weak conference. I personal thin they are going to run the regular season table.

Just wanted to get your thoughts on this. Simply trying to get a better understanding. Thanks

It all comes down to what you want the objective of the D3hoops.com Top 25 to be.  Should it be:

A) A reflection of the teams with the best records?  If that's the case, you just automatically move teams up as they win, and down as they lose.

or

B) A reflection - the best guess of the voters at that given moment - of the top 25 teams, in order?  In other words, if #1 played #2 on a neutral court, the poll would predict #1 to win the game.  If that's the case, then way more goes into it than moving teams up and down based on wins and losses. 


I've always been in the "B" camp.  With the UW-Stevens Point/UW-Whitewater game last night, for example, I don't even consider that an "upset."  UWSP lost on the road, in OT, at the 2nd best team in the WIAC - to me, that is an expected result.  I don't consider the Pointers any less of a team today because of what happened last night.  If I had them #1 before that game, I'd still have them #1.  By the same token, if Cabrini beats Cairn Monday, I won't consider the Cavaliers a better team than I did before the game was played.

I believe you have to dig into wins and losses carefully, factoring in strength of schedule, when you put a Top 25 poll together.

Well said.

[gordonmann]

Incidentally Cabrini's game against Immaculata, which was postponed from Wednesday to tonight, is now postponed with the make up date TBD.  Cabrini's campus hasn't had power fully restored yet after yesterday's storm.

[GnacBballFan]

I think my quote of "move teams up as they win or lose" came off in the wrong way. I don't simply think teams move up and down based on losses in the sense that #7 beats #6 and they swap spots. I understand there is objectivity and sos(I agreed with this part in my post) that go into the process. What I don't get is when previous yrs are involved and how certain teams/conferences have done in the tourney in yrs past. That's my fault for not making that clear.

[Pat Coleman]

Pat, I must say that like GNACBballFan I to am fairly new to the D3 scene as a whole. However just to your point on Top 25 NOT moving up and down based on simply winning and losing I must disagree with you. That is exactly what you get with the D1 polls week in and week out. Its who is winning there games and who is losing. Now I realize that there is certainly much more parity within the D1 ranks an amongst the conferences but at the same time I think a perfect example to counter your point for this year in D1 is Wichita State who is currently the #4 ranked team in the country. They play in the Missouri Valley which certainly isnt the "cream of the crop" and yet are ranked #4. They actually have a great RPI but there SOS is definitely down because of there weak conference. I personal thin they are going to run the regular season table.

Just wanted to get your thoughts on this. Simply trying to get a better understanding. Thanks

But this isn't Division I. We have more teams, we play fewer games and we have fewer out of region games.

Cabrini doesn't play in the Missouri Valley of D-III, however. Cabrini's conference is the 36th-best out of the 47 groupings in D-III that Massey rates, for example. The Missouri Valley is 11th out of 39. For Cabrini to have a similar conference slate, they'd have to play in the Landmark or the Iowa Conference.

There is such a wide, wide disparity. Cabrini has the No. 1193 schedule in college basketball as per Massey, while UWSP has the No. 669 schedule.

Even if Massey is not perfect, that is a huge, huge difference. It's a lot easier to go unbeaten vs. Cabrini's schedule.

Massey, for example, thinks Whitewater is the 324th-best program in all of college basketball. Best team on Cabrini's schedule is No. 449 Randolph-Macon, and Cabrini doesn't have to play them twice or play at their place. Toughest road game was at No. 685 St. Mary's.

Massey doesn't have to be perfect, just in the ballpark, to show how much of a difference there is in the teams' schedules.

[Pat Coleman]

Cabrini doesn't play in the Missouri Valley of D-III, however. Cabrini's conference is the 36th-best out of the 47 groupings in D-III that Massey rates, for example. The Missouri Valley is 11th out of 39. For Cabrini to have a similar conference slate, they'd have to play in the Landmark or the Iowa Conference.

One last point for those who understand D-I better. It's not like Cabrini is playing in D-III's Missouri Valley Conference. Cabrini is playing in D-III's Atlantic Sun or Southland.

[smedindy]

Pat, I must say that like GNACBballFan I to am fairly new to the D3 scene as a whole. However just to your point on Top 25 NOT moving up and down based on simply winning and losing I must disagree with you. That is exactly what you get with the D1 polls week in and week out. Its who is winning there games and who is losing. Now I realize that there is certainly much more parity within the D1 ranks an amongst the conferences but at the same time I think a perfect example to counter your point for this year in D1 is Wichita State who is currently the #4 ranked team in the country. They play in the Missouri Valley which certainly isnt the "cream of the crop" and yet are ranked #4. They actually have a great RPI but there SOS is definitely down because of there weak conference. I personal thin they are going to run the regular season table.

Just wanted to get your thoughts on this. Simply trying to get a better understanding. Thanks

But this isn't Division I. We have more teams, we play fewer games and we have fewer out of region games.

Cabrini doesn't play in the Missouri Valley of D-III, however. Cabrini's conference is the 36th-best out of the 47 groupings in D-III that Massey rates, for example. The Missouri Valley is 11th out of 39. For Cabrini to have a similar conference slate, they'd have to play in the Landmark or the Iowa Conference.

There is such a wide, wide disparity. Cabrini has the No. 1193 schedule in college basketball as per Massey, while UWSP has the No. 669 schedule.

Even if Massey is not perfect, that is a huge, huge difference. It's a lot easier to go unbeaten vs. Cabrini's schedule.

Massey, for example, thinks Whitewater is the 324th-best program in all of college basketball. Best team on Cabrini's schedule is No. 449 Randolph-Macon, and Cabrini doesn't have to play them twice or play at their place. Toughest road game was at No. 685 St. Mary's.

Massey doesn't have to be perfect, just in the ballpark, to show how much of a difference there is in the teams' schedules.

But, if Cabrini pounds everyone like they are supposed to, who is to say they're not the best in the country even with their schedule? You have to factor in ALL of the data, not automatically pooh-pooh it because of one factor (SOS). Don't get all Billy Packer on us, people...

It's very rare for a team with that SOS to be that highly rated in a valid algorithm unless it was really warranted, but here they are and it seems valid, no matter what the elitists and nay-sayers may think. Conference play is hard no matter who you play and what league you're in. You see those teams sometimes you know your opponents better than you know yourself.

They did drop after their narrow win against Rosemont, down to #4. And that drop was valid. I was surprised they didn't drop more - but the body of work is larger now - there is more data to work with.

[smedindy]

Cabrini doesn't play in the Missouri Valley of D-III, however. Cabrini's conference is the 36th-best out of the 47 groupings in D-III that Massey rates, for example. The Missouri Valley is 11th out of 39. For Cabrini to have a similar conference slate, they'd have to play in the Landmark or the Iowa Conference.

One last point for those who understand D-I better. It's not like Cabrini is playing in D-III's Missouri Valley Conference. Cabrini is playing in D-III's Atlantic Sun or Southland.

Except the Atlantic Sun and Southland are usually used as punching bags for the elite teams, unless one of their teams happens to get really good, then they don't get games anymore and then the bloviating elitists on the tee vee will pooh-pooh their schedules even though the corrupt system prevented them from getting good games. Yeah, it irks me to no end.

[Pat Coleman]

Pat, I must say that like GNACBballFan I to am fairly new to the D3 scene as a whole. However just to your point on Top 25 NOT moving up and down based on simply winning and losing I must disagree with you. That is exactly what you get with the D1 polls week in and week out. Its who is winning there games and who is losing. Now I realize that there is certainly much more parity within the D1 ranks an amongst the conferences but at the same time I think a perfect example to counter your point for this year in D1 is Wichita State who is currently the #4 ranked team in the country. They play in the Missouri Valley which certainly isnt the "cream of the crop" and yet are ranked #4. They actually have a great RPI but there SOS is definitely down because of there weak conference. I personal thin they are going to run the regular season table.

Just wanted to get your thoughts on this. Simply trying to get a better understanding. Thanks

But this isn't Division I. We have more teams, we play fewer games and we have fewer out of region games.

Cabrini doesn't play in the Missouri Valley of D-III, however. Cabrini's conference is the 36th-best out of the 47 groupings in D-III that Massey rates, for example. The Missouri Valley is 11th out of 39. For Cabrini to have a similar conference slate, they'd have to play in the Landmark or the Iowa Conference.

There is such a wide, wide disparity. Cabrini has the No. 1193 schedule in college basketball as per Massey, while UWSP has the No. 669 schedule.

Even if Massey is not perfect, that is a huge, huge difference. It's a lot easier to go unbeaten vs. Cabrini's schedule.

Massey, for example, thinks Whitewater is the 324th-best program in all of college basketball. Best team on Cabrini's schedule is No. 449 Randolph-Macon, and Cabrini doesn't have to play them twice or play at their place. Toughest road game was at No. 685 St. Mary's.

Massey doesn't have to be perfect, just in the ballpark, to show how much of a difference there is in the teams' schedules.

But, if Cabrini pounds everyone like they are supposed to, who is to say they're not the best in the country even with their schedule? You have to factor in ALL of the data, not automatically pooh-pooh it because of one factor (SOS). Don't get all Billy Packer on us, people...

It's very rare for a team with that SOS to be that highly rated in a valid algorithm unless it was really warranted, but here they are and it seems valid, no matter what the elitists and nay-sayers may think. Conference play is hard no matter who you play and what league you're in. You see those teams sometimes you know your opponents better than you know yourself.

They did drop after their narrow win against Rosemont, down to #4. And that drop was valid. I was surprised they didn't drop more - but the body of work is larger now - there is more data to work with.

Which is why Cabrini has gotten to No. 2 in the first place, and similarly, how St. Norbert has gotten to No. 8. But not all unbeaten teams have proven the same thing with their resume so far.

[smedindy]

Cabrini IS the only undefeated team. I may or may not vote them #1 next week in my ballot as it depends on the weekend's result.

[Pat Coleman]

Cabrini IS the only undefeated team. I may or may not vote them #1 next week in my ballot as it depends on the weekend's result.

Right. The only question is how many teams would be undefeated against that schedule ... those are the sorts of things a lot of the voters consider.

[Greek Tragedy]

Cabrini IS the only undefeated team. I may or may not vote them #1 next week in my ballot as it depends on the weekend's result.

Neither Point nor Cabrini play this weekend. Is there someone else you had in mind being #1?

[Greek Tragedy]

My people are calling representatives of both teams and we are scrambling our resources to set up a scrimmage to settle who is the best team this weekend as both have an open date Saturday.. Its a scrimmage since the teams don't want to go over the 25-game threshold.

Stevens Point is willing to travel East, but the temperature needs to be above 70°. Cabrini just want power. Cabrini reps will more than likely agree to financial terms but a sticking point is locating an unused aircraft carrier to play the game on.

Details forthcoming!