Top 25 talk

[Greek Tragedy]

I watch some of the St. Olaf/St. John's game this weekend.  I really can't believe St. Olaf is only getting 2 votes in the poll.

Losses to Augustana, Stevens Point and St. Thomas(by 1) and Augsburg over 2 months ago now. 

Looked like a big strong team that would be a tougher match-up for a lot of D3 squads.

At first glance, I thought the same thing. But looking at the achedule, I can see why. To start off, last year they weren't very good at all and St. Thomas was, thus the Tommies getting some love in the preseason poll while the Oles were nowhere to be found for good reason. The Oles start off 2-2 before getting to just 7-4 after their loss at St. Thomas. They hven't lost since. If they beat St. Thomas tomorrow, they very well could be ahead of them in next week's regional rankings.

[sac]

I watch some of the St. Olaf/St. John's game this weekend.  I really can't believe St. Olaf is only getting 2 votes in the poll.

Losses to Augustana, Stevens Point and St. Thomas(by 1) and Augsburg over 2 months ago now. 

Looked like a big strong team that would be a tougher match-up for a lot of D3 squads.

At first glance, I thought the same thing. But looking at the achedule, I can see why. To start off, last year they weren't very good at all and St. Thomas was, thus the Tommies getting some love in the preseason poll while the Oles were nowhere to be found for good reason. The Oles start off 2-2 before getting to just 7-4 after their loss at St. Thomas. They hven't lost since. If they beat St. Thomas tomorrow, they very well could be ahead of them in next week's regional rankings.

Even a fifth loss to St. Thomas wouldn't change my mind that they look like a very good team.  Unless the Tommies crush them or something.

[AndOne]

I'm glad Cabrini wasn't voted #1. Although it was a day after the current poll, they just gave up 96 points to a 2-20 team who they only beat by 7 points. That just doesn't sound like a #1 team---or even a #2. 
Won-loss records can sometimes be deceiving. 

[nescac1]

To be fair to Cabrini, when you are missing the best player in the country AND your second-leading scorer as well, it's hard to get a fair read on how much that result really means.  Having seen Cairn play, I'd say that any other top-10 team, even missing its two best players, would handle Cairn easily.  But none of those players are Aaron Walton-Moss, who seems to be the MVP of D3 this year and has posted one of the best statistical seasons in D3 history.  I assume he will be back soon, but a bigger concern for Cabrini is that A.J. Picard, one of Cabrini's two lights-out shooters (along with Rafferty), has now been out for half the season.  I'm not sure if he is done for the year, but if he is, as dominant as Walton-Moss is, I'm not sure he has enough around him for Cabrini to make it to Salem. 

[Gregory Sager]

To be fair to Cabrini, when you are missing the best player in the country AND your second-leading scorer as well, it's hard to get a fair read on how much that result really means.

Since the poll is a current power ranking, the absence of AWM for the past two games is more than enough reason not to put Cabrini at the top of anyone's ballot -- even if he is projected to return at some point. Right now, Cabrini should not be considered by anyone to be the #1 team in the country as long as he's not in the lineup. (It probably shouldn't even be considered to be a top ten team without him.) The embarrassingly close win over Cairn simply reflects that reality.

When AWM is back in the lineup is the time to reconsider whether Cabrini deserves to be ranked that highly.

[AndOne]

To be fair to Cabrini, when you are missing the best player in the country AND your second-leading scorer as well, it's hard to get a fair read on how much that result really means.  Having seen Cairn play, I'd say that any other top-10 team, even missing its two best players, would handle Cairn easily.  But none of those players are Aaron Walton-Moss, who seems to be the MVP of D3 this year and has posted one of the best statistical seasons in D3 history.  I assume he will be back soon, but a bigger concern for Cabrini is that A.J. Picard, one of Cabrini's two lights-out shooters (along with Rafferty), has now been out for half the season.  I'm not sure if he is done for the year, but if he is, as dominant as Walton-Moss is, I'm not sure he has enough around him for Cabrini to make it to Salem.

Maybe its just me nescac, but I'd say you're contradicting yourself a bit.
You say "any other top-10 team, even missing its two best players, could handle Cairn easily." However, Cabrini, didn't handle Cairn easily with its 2 best players missing.
Is this not another reason for not voting Cabrini even as high as #2, at least currently?

[Greek Tragedy]

He also says, but none of those players are Aaron Walton-Moss...

[Mr. Ypsi]

To be fair to Cabrini, when you are missing the best player in the country AND your second-leading scorer as well, it's hard to get a fair read on how much that result really means.  Having seen Cairn play, I'd say that any other top-10 team, even missing its two best players, would handle Cairn easily.  But none of those players are Aaron Walton-Moss, who seems to be the MVP of D3 this year and has posted one of the best statistical seasons in D3 history.  I assume he will be back soon, but a bigger concern for Cabrini is that A.J. Picard, one of Cabrini's two lights-out shooters (along with Rafferty), has now been out for half the season.  I'm not sure if he is done for the year, but if he is, as dominant as Walton-Moss is, I'm not sure he has enough around him for Cabrini to make it to Salem.

Maybe its just me nescac, but I'd say you're contradicting yourself a bit.
You say "any other top-10 team, even missing its two best players, could handle Cairn easily." However, Cabrini, didn't handle Cairn easily with its 2 best players missing.
Is this not another reason for not voting Cabrini even as high as #2, at least currently?

In defense of nescac1, you left out his next phrase: "But none of those players are Aaron Walton-Moss...".  His loss is probably greater than the loss of any other d3 player.

To be fair to Cabrini, when you are missing the best player in the country AND your second-leading scorer as well, it's hard to get a fair read on how much that result really means.

Since the poll is a current power ranking, the absence of AWM for the past two games is more than enough reason not to put Cabrini at the top of anyone's ballot -- even if he is projected to return at some point. Right now, Cabrini should not be considered by anyone to be the #1 team in the country as long as he's not in the lineup. (It probably shouldn't even be considered to be a top ten team without him.) The embarrassingly close win over Cairn simply reflects that reality.

When AWM is back in the lineup is the time to reconsider whether Cabrini deserves to be ranked that highly.

That is one way of viewing the poll, but not my preferred way.  I view it as who has been how good over the course of the season (with special emphasis, but not exclusive concern, with the immediate present).  When Kent Raymond went down for a few games a few years ago, I downgraded Wheaton somewhat (but less than if he was expected to be out for the season); when he returned to form, they bounced right back.

[Gregory Sager]

The problem, Chuck, is that you can't assume anything in terms of an injury to a star player. Kent Raymond did come back and return to form -- eventually. But some players have lingering issues with regard to their injuries, ankle sprains included, that nag at them for the rest of the season. Even a loss of a quarter of a step can be crucial, because any injury to a star player -- especially one of AWM's abilities and importance to his team -- is magnified.

With your way of looking at it, a team that has a slightly gimpy star may deserve to be at the top of the heap based upon the team's past performance. But I'm not sure that the d3hoops.com pollsters are supposed to be looking at it that way. I've always been led to believe that the Top 25 poll is a ranking of teams as they stand right now.

[magicman]

#19 Brockport State defeats  #31 Geneseo State 66-62 in a great game at Geneseo. Pre-season All American guard, John Ivy, with only 3 points in the 1st half, puts his team on his back and scores 23 of his team's 32 second half points. He has 7 of their final 10 points including a huge 3 pointer, followed by a driving layup and then 2 key free throws to keep Brockport in front by 3 points after Geneseo had closed to within a point. Ivy finished with 26 points and 5 boards.

Gordon Lyons, Geneseo's 6'5" forward had his 13th double-double of the season with 25 points and 17 rebounds. If this guy doesn't make an All American list somewhere then the boat has been missed.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Aaron Walton-Moss will return... I know he was in the walk-throughs for the Wesley and Immaculata preps... I highly suspect the team is making sure they don't have him get injured again or worse against competition he doesn't need to play against. As for Picard, I have heard he is due back any game and I am surprised he didn't play against Cairn... but then again they may be resting him against an opponent he doesn't need to play against.

Also remember this... they are scheduled to play four games this week, three of them on the road. Resting guys against Cairn makes all the sense in the world!

[AndOne]

He also says, but none of those players are Aaron Walton-Moss...

But I think the point that some of us are making is that the supposed #2 team in the nation shouldn't need their best player, no matter who he is, in order to defeat a 2-20 team by only 7 points. And a #2 team shouldn't be giving up 96 points to a 2-20 team! Is AWM the best defensive player too? 

[sac]

Cabrini led by 20 with 8 minutes to play and led by double-digits for large portions of the game.

Every good team that has ever played basketball has beaten someone and let off the gas and had a team play them harder right to the end. 

[smedindy]

He also says, but none of those players are Aaron Walton-Moss...

But I think the point that some of us are making is that the supposed #2 team in the nation shouldn't need their best player, no matter who he is, in order to defeat a 2-20 team by only 7 points. And a #2 team shouldn't be giving up 96 points to a 2-20 team! Is AWM the best defensive player too? 

Things happen in a game or in a season. Playing four games and letting off the gas on one game against a weaker opponent happens. I've seen many times where a team had thought they had enough cushion to call off the dogs, and then they had to hustle back in to put in the starters when the scrubs lazed it up.

[chip]

Cairn shot a ridiculous 61% from 3 in that game. Walls scored 34 for Cabrini. That is the scary thing people are not looking at. Once Cabrini gets Picard and AWM back, they will have 3 or 4 guys that can easily go for double-figures off the bench.