Top 25 talk

[HOPEful]

Hope's losses are to...
#1 and #2 team in the West (#1 and #2 in the nation according to D3Hoops.com)
the #2 and #3 team in the Midwest (#4 and unranked according to D3hoops.com)
the #5 team in the NAIA Div. 2
and one, ugly in conference loss on the road...

Five of those six losses were in 2013 and five of them were on the road. Currently, the Flying Dutchmen are starting a freshman and two sophomores. To compare, UWSP and UWWW both start three seniors and two juniors. It would be illogical to expect a very young Hope team to go to Wisconsin and play two experienced teams with realistic national championship aspirations and come out with a win. Losing to Illinois Wesleyan at home, Wheaton at Calvin, or Cornerstone at Calvin, are anything but embarrassing losses (other than perhaps the manner in which they lost to Wheaton)

You can (and should) hold the loss at Albion against them. But since losing to IWU before Christmas, Hope is (16-1).  If you are going to define a team by one loss, you then have to be universal with your criticism. Cabrini's lone loss is to (9-16) Baptist Bible. WPI lost at home to (13-2) Emerson. St. Thomas lost at home last week to (15-10) St. John's and Purchase went to (9-17) St Jospeh's (L.I.) and lost. How is Wittenberg not being bashed for remaining in D3hoops' top 25? They too have 6 losses, including a home loss to (12-14) Denison.

Not only should Hope be in the top 25, but if they win out, they should be in the conversation for hosting the first round, as the # 2 team from the Great Lakes region.

[Pat Coleman]

Welcome to the board! Good to see you!

[NEHoopsFan99]

Hope's losses are to...
#1 and #2 team in the West (#1 and #2 in the nation according to D3Hoops.com)
the #2 and #3 team in the Midwest (#4 and unranked according to D3hoops.com)
the #5 team in the NAIA Div. 2
and one, ugly in conference loss on the road...

Five of those six losses were in 2013 and five of them were on the road. Currently, the Flying Dutchmen are starting a freshman and two sophomores. To compare, UWSP and UWWW both start three seniors and two juniors. It would be illogical to expect a very young Hope team to go to Wisconsin and play two experienced teams with realistic national championship aspirations and come out with a win. Losing to Illinois Wesleyan at home, Wheaton at Calvin, or Cornerstone at Calvin, are anything but embarrassing losses (other than perhaps the manner in which they lost to Wheaton)

You can (and should) hold the loss at Albion against them. But since losing to IWU before Christmas, Hope is (16-1).  If you are going to define a team by one loss, you then have to be universal with your criticism. Cabrini's lone loss is to (9-16) Baptist Bible. WPI lost at home to (13-2) Emerson. St. Thomas lost at home last week to (15-10) St. John's and Purchase went to (9-17) St Jospeh's (L.I.) and lost. How is Wittenberg not being bashed for remaining in D3hoops' top 25? They too have 6 losses, including a home loss to (12-14) Denison.

Not only should Hope be in the top 25, but if they win out, they should be in the conversation for hosting the first round, as the # 2 team from the Great Lakes region.

Unfortunately you can't look at any team's record in a vacuum. It's plain silly to argue they're a 16-1 team. Breaking the record into 2013 and 2014 is nonsensical. The NCAA looks at each team's season holistically and so should we. I'm not saying Hope isn't a solid team- but their conference and region are simply not as strong as others. Furthermore, regardless of how great their losses are, they still have 6 and no great wins. There are other teams with higher RPI and SOS with less losses that are not ranked, or that are more deserving to host. Not saying they won't but there are a lot of other great teams out there.

[madzillagd]

NEHoopsFan99 - I'm not in disagreement with what you are saying but I think you've got to provide which teams should take their place so a comparison can be made.  If you look at the next 4 teams on the list that got votes but didn't make the top 25 they have 6, 5, 5, and 5 losses each.  Who are the more worthy teams?

[NEHoopsFan99]

Babson, Plattsburgh State and Richard Stockton should all be ranked higher. But I guess I got carried away for arguments sake. Top 25 really does not mean much

[HOPEful]

NEHoopsFan99, I agree completely that you do have to look at the entire body of work and losses are losses. I never said they are a 16-1 team. But I do think how a team finishes the year should matter more than how they start the year. The selection committee for division 1 agrees. My point wasn't that those losses don't or shouldn't count. It was simply that the team that lost those games is a different team that has gone 16-1 since then. And they were against teams to whom everyone could/would/has lost. How can you hold the four losses to @UWWW, @UWSP, IWU, and the NAIA D2 #5 team against them and make the blanket statement "they are a 6 loss team." In the NCAA, they are a 5 loss team. Randolph-Macon lost to Scranton, Christopher Newport, Guilford, Cabrini, and Eastern Menonite. Do wins against Dickenson and Virginia Wesleyan really stand out that much more than Centre and Carthage?

Randolph-Macon lost 4 of their first 8. They are 14-1 in 2013 and sit at #13 in the country (d3hoops) and #1 in the south (ncaa)... Hope lost 5 of their first 8, to better opponents, then went 16-1, and are #2 in the GL. And they don't belong in the top 25 or in at least the conversation to host? That doesn't make sense to me.

Let me be clear. I think highly of Randolph-Macon. This arguement is not in any way shape or form meant to devalue what they have done...

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

For the record, the Top 25 voters can look at whatever they want to when deciding who are the Top 25 teams... they don't have to follow NCAA criteria, nor does the NCAA follow Top 25 voters criteria (of which there are 25 opinions and criteria).

[HOPEful]

"For the record, the Top 25 voters can look at whatever they want to when deciding who are the Top 25 teams... they don't have to follow NCAA criteria, nor does the NCAA follow Top 25 voters criteria (of which there are 25 opinions and criteria)."

Agreed. In a perfect world, every voter would have watched every team under consideration, as well. Dave, you've made an argument at least once this year has been something along the lines of "I have seen them in person..." The eye test can go a long ways and seldom lies. You can't fake having a 6'10" center that dominates inside; but you have to see in person how fast he moves to the help side, how quick he gets into the lane, does he play like he's 6'10"?... to really know if he could hold his own against someone like David Falk (Eastern Menn.)

I can't apply the "eye test" to every team in the top 25. I wish I could. The best I can do is compare the teams I see to the teams I've seen, both this year and teams that have gone deep in years past. This is an admittedly flawed way of measuring, but who has the time to live stream 20+ games a week?

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Well... I have been guilty of watching that may games in a week... and this weekend it will be at least 8 games in person (maybe 10) and countless online.

[NEHoopsFan99]

Alright I must admit you Hope fans have won me over! I think there are a few teams that deserve to make the top but haven't, and a few that are in the top that shouldn't be(cough cough Wittenberg) but you've all convinced me of why Hope is one that does deserve to be there. Rooting for all underdogs typically overlooked by national voters

[smedindy]

I personally think the eye test lies a lot more than not because of ingrained biases. I know in baseball it's revelatory that the 'eye test' falls on its face many times when dealing with defensive metrics.

BTW - Not a Hope fan in the least. More of a fan of metrics and analysis.

[sac]

Its a lot of discussion over 58  poll votes. 

[smedindy]

Its a lot of discussion over 58  poll votes. 

it's worth it even over one.  Or none.

[jeffjo]

Hope's losses are to...
#1 and #2 team in the West (#1 and #2 in the nation according to D3Hoops.com)
the #2 and #3 team in the Midwest (#4 and unranked according to D3hoops.com)
the #5 team in the NAIA Div. 2
and one, ugly in conference loss on the road...

Agreed: These loses (excluding the last one) can't be held against them. But they can't help them, either.

On any given day, a ranked 11-25 team can beat a top 10 team. Just not that often. One such loss counts as nothing. Three such losses are questionable. But given five opportunities, and no successes, means the team can't be put in an equivalent category.

Step up at least once, or step back. Kudos for obtaining such a tough schedule, but it means nothing if you can't do something with it.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Randolph-Macon lost 4 of their first 8. They are 14-1 in 2013 and sit at #13 in the country (d3hoops) and #1 in the south (ncaa)... Hope lost 5 of their first 8, to better opponents, then went 16-1, and are #2 in the GL. And they don't belong in the top 25 or in at least the conversation to host? That doesn't make sense to me.

Conference.  Conference.  Conference.

The MIAA is two teams (and Albion once a decade).  The ODAC is rough; their top end is down this year, but the parity is as high as always.

Plus, RMC beat a few of the good teams they played non-conference.  Hope had the misfortune of scheduling really, really, really good teams this year (as opposed to really good ones), but wins speak louder than good loses (even if good loses aren't silent).

I have no doubt both teams are improving as the season goes along, but there's way, way more evidence to back an RMC vote.  A lot of times it doesn't come down to which team I think is better, but which team's case I can more easily defend.