Top 25 talk

[KnightSlappy]

It's notable that Webster very nearly won a game.

They fished 135th in the Massey ratings and their best win was over Spalding (Massey #156, who they also lost to). They ended 19-7 against a soft D3 portion of the schedule. Let's not get too excited.

[y_jack_lok]

It's notable that Webster very nearly won a game.

They fished 135th in the Massey ratings and their best win was over Spalding (Massey #156, who they also lost to). They ended 19-7 against a soft D3 portion of the schedule. Let's not get too excited.

Agree that it's premature to think about Webster meriting top 25 votes now. For the sake of accuracy, Webster ended last season at 20-8 (18-7 regular season plus two wins in SLIAC tourney, plus the loss to IWU).

[hopefan]

Knightslappy... you know as well as I do that Massey is just a bunch of numbers that don't take into account anything but scores...  those of us who have seen Webster regularly, and the knowledgeable CCIW fans who watched Webster give IWU the scare of a lifetime, know that they are worth generating a little excitement going into the season.... 

YOU haven't seen them play (otherwise if you came down to ST Louis, you should have contacted me... we'd have gone out to dinner)  and are likely unaware that Webster started out 5-5, missing starting forward Aaron Griffin for most of that time due to injury, and Hunter Ward for all but one game of the first 10 as he waited  for transfer eligibility that came in the 2nd semester.  Once Ward worked his way into the starting lineup, he average 17 ppg, including the 25 against IWU... The Massey numbers don't take that kind of info into account...

Yes they lost at Spalding after beating them earlier... but they went back to Spalding and beat them in the Conference tourney 2 weeks later... and that is a TOUGH Gym to win in... think of the Holland Civic Center with 30% of the seating (or less)

And of course, we can pull out the comparative scores

Webster 70  IWU  71
Calvin  64   IWU 78

In this case Knightslappy, throw the final Massey numbers out... at least for now, fans of Webster can be excited about the upcoming season. 

[hopefan]

It's notable that Webster very nearly won a game.

They fished 135th in the Massey ratings and their best win was over Spalding (Massey #156, who they also lost to). They ended 19-7 against a soft D3 portion of the schedule. Let's not get too excited.

Agree that it's premature to think about Webster meriting top 25 votes now. For the sake of accuracy, Webster ended last season at 20-8 (18-7 regular season plus two wins in SLIAC tourney, plus the loss to IWU).

I still say one voter putting them at #25 would have been justifiable....

[Pat Coleman]

Well, I guess we will see. None of our 25 voters even asked for Webster info. If they are worthy then we will get votes for them based on their non-conference results.

Should they have received it anyway, to refresh their memories? I feel it surely could have been made available... Is this a fallacy in the system that could be corrected in the future?

Someone has to have a school on their radar in order for us to ask for it. We're not going to ask for all 400 teams and then filter out afterward.

Indeed, I looked back at Webster's 2013-14 last year too to see what I was missing and yes, one close loss to a brand-name team (and one big loss to another) but when I asked the "who did they beat" question, I don't see what I'm supposed to be looking for.

Fontbonne took UMHB to the wire in the first round in 2008 as well and it wasn't a leading indicator of anything. Sometimes close losses happen in the first round and I would have thought Gregory would have known that. I'm perfectly OK with Webster not getting any votes. Hey, even in the most bare-bones analysis -- nobody that Webster beat last year got any votes, so there is no obvious logical fallacy.

This sounds a lot like eyeball test from a pretty biased observer (sorry, Hopefan) and Gregory fixating on one close loss ... I, on the other hand, will be glad to wait for a win.

[Titan Q]

I think Webster is a legitimate Top 25 candidate (they have some really impressive talent), and a team that voters should keep a very close eye on, but I think "glaring oversight" seems over the top.

IWU led Webster by 18 points in the 2nd half of that game.  Had the Titans won by 13 or 9 or something "comfortable", I don't think there would be mention of Webster here as a preseason Top 25 team.  I don't agree with the suggestion that because Webster made that impressive 2nd half comeback, and lost in a game that came down to the final seconds, that the Gorloks should be in the 2014-15 preseason poll.  There has to be more on the 2013-14 resume than a great 17 minutes to say "glaring oversight", doesn't there?

In my opinion, had Webster landed in the preseason Top 25 it would have been fair...and had Webster received some votes but not made it, it would have been fair...just as it's fair that they didn't get any votes at all.  As it worked out, I think Webster falls in the category of "teams to watch."  The Gorloks should be very good and will have a chance to open some eyes with their 2014-15 play.

[hopefan]

Thanks for the feedback guys... good discussion... it's what makes this site great to the people who care about D3hoops...

[Greek Tragedy]

According to the schedule, Webster will get a couple of shots to see what they are made of. They play Texas-Dallas and Washington U. by their 10th game of the season. Loras, although not real good recently,  may also give them a test on the road.

[Pat Coleman]

Agreed -- and the UTD game comes before the first regular-season ballot so that's a good opportunity for Webster to get into the conversation.

[sac]

UTD graduated 3 starters and 4 of its top 8 rotation. 

[Pat Coleman]

UTD graduated 3 starters and 4 of its top 8 rotation. 

Still will be better than anyone in the SLIAC.

[smedindy]

Knightslappy... you know as well as I do that Massey is just a bunch of numbers that don't take into account anything but scores...

Sounds like "Fan Excuse Bingo" from the Cancellation Bear Twitter Feed! 

[hopefan]

UTD graduated 3 starters and 4 of its top 8 rotation. 

Still will be better than anyone in the SLIAC.

I'll just counter with "??" ... hope the Webster kids are reading this....

[Hugenerd]

Interestingly, MIT (#16 with 246 points) and Eastern Connecticut (#36 with 37 points) are both ranked higher than Plattsburgh State in the preseason poll yet Plattsburgh has more returning talent than either of these teams.

I honestly don't know anything about the Plattsburgh team (so I can't comment on returning talent for them), and I know they had a great game against MIT last year, but just wanted to point out that MIT is returning everybody from last year.  Literally everyone, they had no seniors on last year's squad (they have 5 this season, including 3 likely startes). They have made NCAAs I believe 6 years in a row now. 

I think they are placed pretty appropriately in the rankings, so no complaints here, but I just wanted to make the point about the returning talent in response to your comment.

[magicman]

Interestingly, MIT (#16 with 246 points) and Eastern Connecticut (#36 with 37 points) are both ranked higher than Plattsburgh State in the preseason poll yet Plattsburgh has more returning talent than either of these teams.

I honestly don't know anything about the Plattsburgh team (so I can't comment on returning talent for them), and I know they had a great game against MIT last year, but just wanted to point out that MIT is returning everybody from last year.  Literally everyone, they had no seniors on last year's squad (they have 5 this season, including 3 likely startes). They have made NCAAs I believe 6 years in a row now. 

I think they are placed pretty appropriately in the rankings, so no complaints here, but I just wanted to make the point about the returning talent in response to your comment.

Hello Hugenerd,
I know that MIT has everyone coming back, I saw that NCAA game and I was quite familiar with MIT's roster. I believe if Plattsburgh  and MIT happen to face off again this year that Plattsburgh will once again come out on top. I think the Cardinals will be better than they were last year.  I can see the Engineers having a decent season but I'll be surprised if they end up in the Top 15. And if they do then Plattsburgh should be in the Top 10.