Top 25 talk

[sac]

We all knew the preseason poll was off.  Day one - Augustana barely escapes Albion at home.  IWU and Williams lose.  It's like there just isn't a Top 10.  Can we rank 11-25 instead?

Game was in Cincinnati, and you have to experience playing Albion to understand why that score shouldn't be surprising.

[Gregory Sager]

Richard Stockton squeaked by Wilkes.

[squeaky voice]TGHIJGSTO![/squeaky voice]

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

We all knew the preseason poll was off.  Day one - Augustana barely escapes Albion at home.  IWU and Williams lose.  It's like there just isn't a Top 10.  Can we rank 11-25 instead?

Thus my comments earlier that I had asked Pat if I could just start at #10 this year LOL

[wooscotsfan]

Final:  Richard Stockton 84  #8 Albertus Magnus 75  TGHIJGSTO! 

So in the first weekend of action, #1, #4, #5 and #8 all register a loss.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Final:  Richard Stockton 84  #8 Albertus Magnus 75  TGHIJGSTO!

I went to Stockton tonight.  Google gave me the wrong exit number twice, but I got there in plenty of time.  I did not meet TGHIJGSTO!, but if this game is indicative of how things go there, I can understand why he is as he is.

I'll start with overall impressions, then address each team:

I've never been part of such a clusterf*** of a game.  I know it is early in the season, but it was a parade of "what will happen next."  The refs blew a few calls early (it is the beginning of their season, too) and the players and coaches got on them hard.  I would have called a T on both teams within the first 90 seconds.  I've never seen refs put up with that kind of abuse.  In the first half, it was totally unjustified - but the emotional energy of the outrage had opposite effects on the teams.  Eian Davis from AMC just lost his mind early on and was never a factor.  Whereas Stockton used the energy to lock down and focus.  They got out to a huge lead.

In the second half, the refs seemed to give into pressure and just started failing left and right.  I have absolutely no ties to either team, but it was just such a clueless half of officiating.  They had to stop the game twice to clean blood off the floor, but the refs refused to call anything but touch fouls.  A handcheck up top or a hand brushing an arm on a block attempt drew quick whistles - nailing some guy with an elbow got a play on.

At one point, one of the Stockton guards drove the lane and gave such a blatant push-off that even the home crowd was all murmuring "charge."  The side ref, with a perfect view called offensive foul, the guy behind the basket, blocked by the defender, called block.  The guy with the view deferred.  It was a huge momentum swing and foul #3 on Big Vic from AMC, early in the second half.

Things got worse from there.  Not just the refs, but the players were so out of control and wild.  At one point I said out loud, "it's as if no one on that floor has ever seen a basketball game before," and got a lot of nods all around.

I expected Albertus to be the in-form squad, with them returning so much of their core - while Stockton would have to be working through chemistry issues, bringing back only four players from last year.  It was exactly the opposite.  Stockton restocked very well.  I think they're deeper and more well rounded than the Sweet 16 team from last season.  They've got a ways to go, as every team does this time of year, but they'll be formidable for anyone.  Josh Blamon showed his class early, keeping his team locked-in and together.  He didn't appear much in the stat sheet, but made a steal and three-point play with about 90 seconds to go that sealed the game.  It was a huge spot and a great play.

As for Albertus, I have no idea where to start.  They were clearly the best team on the floor and will be among the best in the country - but they were undisciplined and arrogant.  There's not even a fine line between arrogance and confidence and Albertus leapt across it.  They seemed to expect to win, to get every call.  I came in excited to see Davis play, but he was such a headcase.  Held scoreless early, he spent five minutes of the sideline after getting poked in the eye.  When he did play early in the second half, he was too emotional to stay on the floor and got himself benched.

Big Vic is among the most athletic big men I've ever seen in d3.  He's a jumper, great with body-control and smart.  Unfortunately he isn't very assertive and his teammates just forgot he existed.  Every time they went to him, they either got a basket or a kick-out.  They just so rarely looked inside it didn't even matter when he fouled out.  To think they're wasting such an advantage is mind-blowing.

The big revelation for me is Tavon Sledge.  He scored something like 32 against Lyndon last night, so I knew he was good, but he's very good.  Only 5'9", he had a couple of huge dunks - they even tried to run an alley-oop to him in traffic, which would have worked if it hadn't been telegraphed so thoroughly every person in the gym knew it was coming.  Sledge is fast, has a killer handle, and incredible court vision.  He's an All-American type point guard for sure.  I haven't seen anyone so naturally understand everything happening on the court all at once since Cory Lemons.  Sledge isn't as good as Lemons and he's much shorter, but when he's got the ball you just know everything is moving slower for him than for everyone else.

The rest of the team worked hard and they had a pretty good stretch in the second half, but most of the game consisted of stupid turnovers, poor decision-making, and lazy defense.  They have the depth and athleticism to run, which is what they tried to do, but I wouldn't trust anyone but Vic and Sledge to make good decisions.  If I were coaching that team, with the skills they bring and the shooters they have, I'd be running a half court set every time.  Get the ball in to Vic, let him work or dish.

The biggest tragedy of the whole thing is that AMC doesn't have a single other team on the schedule who will challenge them to work on what they'll need to contend for a national title.  They certainly have the talent to do it, but they're going to get away with sloppy play and turnovers all year, winning on talent alone.  I don't see any way they improve enough to get farther than they did last year without a serious, award-worthy coaching job.  Sad.

In the end, both teams are likely Top-15 caliber (Albertus could be Top 5, but we'll never see them against an opponent good enough to be able to tell for sure).  I'll know better when I see the Hoopsville Tourney next Saturday and get a broader sense of how teams are playing.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

To be honest... considering the teams... I am not surprised good behavior wasn't at the forefront. Many have heard my thoughts about AMC last year in the NCAA tournament and I have seen Richard Stockton on several occasions and they aren't exactly choir boys. I also hate to say it, but it seems for both it starts at the top. I would not say either of them are the poster teams for sportsmanship in our division.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

It was crazy, because there was no need for it early on.  The refs could have squashed it with technicals - and it wouldn't have been out of line.  Instead they went the whole half getting killed.  When they finally stopped the game to warn and lecture the coaches, it was far too late.  Then, once the teams stopped yelling, the refs started sucking.

I did think it was poor form for Stockton to let one of their assistants walk the sidelines yelling at the refs by name.

Props to Big Vic and Sledge for keeping cool even when things got very frustrating in the second half.  I don't think I heard or saw anything from the Stockton players, but that assistant would have been ejected two minutes in had I been officiating that game.  The fans can say whatever they want, but the benches need to show some measure of respect.

It was an experience I will not soon forget, although not for the best reasons.  It could have been a really awesome game.  In the end, no one should be proud of what happened tonight.  At least I learned something about the teams, though, or the 4 hours driving and $10 in tolls would not have been worth it.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Same thing happened with AMC last year against Williams... from the opening tip they went after them and it got worse and worse and worse. I thought a tech early would have stopped it all, but I don't think the refs wanted to fire one of those in the playoffs. It culminated with an AMC player body checking a Williams player into his bench and only getting a flagrant or tech called; not ejected as he should have been. And an AMC player bumping and getting in the face of a ref when he disagreed with a clear and obvious blocking/hand checking call and not even getting a tech.

[D3HoopJunkie]

Dave I was at the game last year and Eian did not check that Williams player into his bench. It was a hard foul no doubt about it but not worthy of getting ejected. I didnt say anything last year because honestly I dont want to get in a back and forth on here about whats right and whats wrong whos right whos wrong. I just wanna support my team but I have to totally disagree with your assessment there and if you think that game was called fairly then I really cant side with you at all on that issue. I was even more disappointed with some of the words you used on Hoopsville following that game in regards to the team.

Dave again I'm not here to argue, what you guys do at D3Hoops.com is fantastic but 90% of the refereening at this level is atrocious and on almost every occasion games get out of hand because the referees have no control over whats going on. To me thats sad. I heard not only Coach Oliver but Coach Maker telling the refs the rules in that game last year and it was clear they had no idea what was going on.

HoopsFan appreciate the assessment. The fact that Albertus even had a shot in this game the way they played im sure showed you how talented they are.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I understand you have your opinion and you are entitled to it, but I was not the only person in that gym who thought the same way. I am not going to go back and forth, either, but I have been around this game long enough and come from a rather neutral point of view... as did most of the people I talked with some of whom were FAR closer than I was at the time... and I am going to stick to my opinion. It takes a lot for me to be upset about behavior and sportsmanship especially when in a major game like an NCAA tournament. However, I also think sportsmanship and behavior are very important and always held myself and those on my team as a player or coach to a high standard as such (as taught to me by parents and coaches), so I am going to state when I think those standards are below par (well below my standard). I am sorry you didn't like my thoughts and comments, but I didn't like the actions I witnessed first hand.

As for whether the game was called fairly, the common complaint I heard from AMC fans and others was they didn't like the fact they couldn't get away with the physical play. I had no problems with the face they were being called for aggressive hand checking especially when it was impeding the direction of an offensive player - something that has been a point of emphasis for several years now - even 45 feet from the basket. Furthermore, no matter how the game is officiated, teams need to adjust accordingly and AMC was deadset to play their way be damned the calls and were shocked when they kept getting called for the same fouls all of the time. I was looking forward to seeing AMC compete, but I thought they did not adjust well to the game in many facets and their frustrations eventually put them in some very bad situations - like the foul against Williams I discussed (again, the Williams player was off of his feet and into the bench after the foul).

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

HoopsFan appreciate the assessment. The fact that Albertus even had a shot in this game the way they played im sure showed you how talented they are.

Yeah, it's a good team.  Sledge and Vic alone should be able to win a first round tourney game.  Adding in the rest of the pieces is great - if they can find some discipline.  Sledge was throwing crazy passes all over the place, but they were always smart passes.  Everyone else seemed like they were trying to do what he does without the ability to do it.

1) They've got to cut down on turnover considerably.

2) They have to make sure Vic touches the ball on every possession.  Every one.  He's a smart enough guy to know when to pass out.


I just don't see any team on their schedule who will challenge them enough to learn those things before tourney time.  I'll be rooting for them to get it together, though - fun to watch when they're working right.

[Roundball999]

Dave I was at the game last year and Eian did not check that Williams player into his bench. It was a hard foul no doubt about it but not worthy of getting ejected. I didnt say anything last year because honestly I dont want to get in a back and forth on here about whats right and whats wrong whos right whos wrong. I just wanna support my team but I have to totally disagree with your assessment there and if you think that game was called fairly then I really cant side with you at all on that issue. I was even more disappointed with some of the words you used on Hoopsville following that game in regards to the team.

Dave again I'm not here to argue, what you guys do at D3Hoops.com is fantastic but 90% of the refereening at this level is atrocious and on almost every occasion games get out of hand because the referees have no control over whats going on. To me thats sad. I heard not only Coach Oliver but Coach Maker telling the refs the rules in that game last year and it was clear they had no idea what was going on.

HoopsFan appreciate the assessment. The fact that Albertus even had a shot in this game the way they played im sure showed you how talented they are.

Have to disagree there.  I see many games (admittedly the majority are MIAA) and the refs are generally at least adequate and games virtually never get "out of hand".  If you're seeing that happen with any frequency, then I have to think the teams/coaches involved have to bear some blame because it is not endemic to the DIII game.  I would also have question why a guy like Dave, who knows the game, sees games/teams all over the country and is an an ambassador for the division, would single out a team for such comments if there weren't some credible reason.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Overall the officiating in d3 is pretty good.  It's different from region to region for sure, but there have been scant few games I thought the refs decided things or had a real impact.  Adjusting to officials is part of the game.

Now for sure, like what happened last night, there are times the refs just refuse to set boundaries and define the parameters of the game, but at the same time, teams don't have to push things so far just because they're not meeting resistance.

[sac]

If you want to judge how good officiating is in your area make a list of your league officials off box scores and compare them to D2 and low D1 games on your leagues non-game days.  If your officials are being asked to do higher level games or being promoted, then your league has generally good officiating.

[Greek Tragedy]

I was recently skimming through the MIAC's season preview and I was impressed that St. Thomas was going for their 10th straight regular season title this year.

I don't have time to do the research,  but what other current streaks are there? What's the longest in history?