Top 25 talk

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Say WashU loses that game.  What's the over under for number of schools getting a first place vote next week?  5.5?  6?  6.5?

[Gregory Sager]

Of course, now we have to ask ourselves, does the Augustana team that might be weaker due to the loss of a key post player winning over Whitewater, mean Whitewater isn't quite as good as we thought they might have been?

Since the sarcasm detector seems to be turned off in this room, I have to ask you, HF: Are you being sarcastic when you refer to Augie's "loss of a key post player"?

(As far as team strength is concerned, everything I saw from both Augie and UWW last night further sold me on the conviction that they're both legitimate Top Five teams.)

I don't know - that's sort of the point.  There was some hay made about the injury and subsequent loss.  Coach was pretty adamant on Hoopsville "we're not the same team that got ranked #1 on Monday."  I didn't see them before, so I can't compare.

I responded at length to that claim by Augustana head coach Grey Giovanine in the CCIW room last week, which is why I thought that you might've been sarcastic -- I wasn't sure if you'd read it or not. Here's what I had to say about Giovanine's assertions, vis-a-vis the injured big man, Kevin Schlitter:

I'm fascinated by Augie's situation at the moment. Not so much last night's loss, as I don't think it's a terrible loss. As sac noted, the Dutch were a second-round D3 tourney team last season. Plus, Central was 3-0 going into the contest and was playing at home, and that seems like a good scenario for a possible upset.

But what fascinates me is Grey Giovanine's quote in Josh Smith's Around the Region column today on d3hoops.com:

"We're not the same team we were two weeks ago," Augustana head coach Grey Giovanine said, prior to Wednesday's 89-78 loss at Central. "We lost our best, most experienced front line player for the season. So the team that was ranked No. 1 in the country, well, that team isn't here anymore.

"Losing Kevin Schlitter for the year is a major blow, so we're really kind of having to redefine our team."

C'mon, Grey. Kevin Schlitter is your best front-line player? Is that why you weren't starting him and why you were only giving him fewer than 13 minutes of playing time per game this season? Heck, in his final game Schlitter got a whopping six minutes off of the bench in a 22-point thrashing of Rust. Who are you trying to kid, Grey? Everybody and his uncle knows that your best front-line players are your starters: PF Ben Ryan, SF Tayvian Johnson, and C Nick Hoepfner. Two years ago you had to play without Schlitter, and Augie finished 19-8 with what was basically a sophomore-dominated team that is almost identical in roster makeup to this season's senior-dominated team.

I'm not saying that Schlitter is chopped liver. He's a good player, and any CCIW team would be happy to have him. But Grey Giovanine hardly has to "redefine" his team in Schlitter's absence, since, as I said, the Doggies played almost the entire season two years ago with Schlitter out for the season. The Augie coach will almost certainly do the same thing that he did in 2012-13, which is to plug Alex Dziagwa and/or Brandon Motzel right into Schlitter's spot in the rotation and continue on as though nothing had happened.

I'm not trying to pile on Giovanine here, given the constant coat-throwing gibes that are starting to get a little redundant. But this really seems to me to be a less-than-honest response to the media regarding the as-yet-unexplained loss of Kevin Schlitter for the year. Perhaps some Augustana fan can point out what it is that I seem to be missing in Giovanine's comments, but it reads to me as a case of truth-bending poor-mouth on his part.

I don't back down from anything I had to say in that post. In fact, last night's game reinforces it for me. Augustana does just fine without Kevin Schlitter.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Say WashU loses that game.  What's the over under for number of schools getting a first place vote next week?  5.5?  6?  6.5?

If they lose... I said on Hoopsville it's a pick-em... Yeah... six might be a safe bet.

By the way, Amherst has lost their last two games - both at home - by an avereage of 19.5 points! They are off until Dec. 30 when they travel to Drew... they are then at Goucher (1/2) before heading to Eastern Connecticut (1/6)... before heading to Hamilton (1/9) and Williams (1/10). My bet is one night at Amherst and that coming before the Hamilton trip. Lose two in a row at home to end this part of the season... it isn't going to be a fun holiday break.

[Gregory Sager]

From reading the NESCAC room, it sounds to me like Amherst is a very talented but young and inexperienced team. This could be the "young and inexperienced" part coming to the fore.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Say WashU loses that game.  What's the over under for number of schools getting a first place vote next week?  5.5?  6?  6.5?

If they lose... I said on Hoopsville it's a pick-em... Yeah... six might be a safe bet.

By the way, Amherst has lost their last two games - both at home - by an avereage of 19.5 points! They are off until Dec. 30 when they travel to Drew... they are then at Goucher (1/2) before heading to Eastern Connecticut (1/6)... before heading to Hamilton (1/9) and Williams (1/10). My bet is one night at Amherst and that coming before the Hamilton trip. Lose two in a row at home to end this part of the season... it isn't going to be a fun holiday break.

I realize that it all depends on how other teams do (can't assign a ranking in a vacuum!) but any estimate how you will place Amherst?  I'm guessing they would drop below 10; but below 15?

[AndOne]

They're a 5-2 team with the 2 losses by 20 and 19 points, both coming at home. Last week, UWSP, with a 5-2 record, which has now gone to 6-2, was ranked 21st. Accordingly, it wouldn't seem surprising to see them drop not just below 15, but below 20.

[iwumichigander]

They're a 5-2 team with the 2 losses by 20 and 19 points, both coming at home. Last week, UWSP, with a 5-2 record, which has now gone to 6-2, was ranked 21st. Accordingly, it wouldn't seem surprising to see them drop not just below 15, but below 20.

combined 14 -30 record of their competition before the two home losses will not help Amherst either but I don't see them below 20 --- yet. 

[Pat Coleman]

In the absence of other losses, such a team could be expected to fall anywhere from 12-18 spots, based on my past observations. Not sure losing two at home makes a big difference but the level of opponent is definitely a factor.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

From reading the NESCAC room, it sounds to me like Amherst is a very talented but young and inexperienced team. This could be the "young and inexperienced" part coming to the fore.

Young is right, but I'd also say they may be the most experienced "young team" in the country.  They've got floor leaders with serious tournament experience.

I doubt any team will go undefeated this year - we may not have anyone go undefeated in conference.  I suspect 3 losses overall might be the best anyone does.


Amherst has played a weak schedule with a team coping from serious losses.  They got ranked high by default and stayed there because other teams lost.  Brandeis and Babson were, by far, the best teams they've played so far.  Their resume is certainly not as impressive as Point right now.

To me the bigger mystery will be how much this helps Babson.  They've had early wins, but in such a way it was tough to judge them.  Amherst's second loss will only make it more difficult to figure out just how good they are.

[sac]

Its worth noting this weekend is the big Johnson and Wales tournament at Johnson and Wales, North Carolina

Fri  Johnson and Wales(Co.)  vs Johnson and Wales(NC)
Fri  Johnson and Wales(RI) vs Johnson and Wales (FL)

Sat:  Winners vs Winners, losers vs losers

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I am rooting for Johnson and Wales in that one!

Reminds me of the annual Concordia tournament in the Midwest.

[KnightSlappy]

Amherst will remain ranked because AMHERST(!) and #2(!), but I'd take the resumes of unranked Chicago, St. Olaf, Calvin, Lynchburg, Wheaton (Ill.), Hope, Central, and even Williams (to name a few) ahead of them at this point.

[sac]

I am rooting for Johnson and Wales in that one!

Reminds me of the annual Concordia tournament in the Midwest.

Hosted by Concordia, Michigan this year in Ann Arbor.

[magicman]

Say WashU loses that game.  What's the over under for number of schools getting a first place vote next week?  5.5?  6?  6.5?

If they lose... I said on Hoopsville it's a pick-em... Yeah... six might be a safe bet.

By the way, Amherst has lost their last two games - both at home - by an avereage of 19.5 points! They are off until Dec. 30 when they travel to Drew... they are then at Goucher (1/2) before heading to Eastern Connecticut (1/6)... before heading to Hamilton (1/9) and Williams (1/10). My bet is one night at Amherst and that coming before the Hamilton trip. Lose two in a row at home to end this part of the season... it isn't going to be a fun holiday break.

I realize that it all depends on how other teams do (can't assign a ranking in a vacuum!) but any estimate how you will place Amherst?  I'm guessing they would drop below 10; but below 15?

In the Massey Ratings Amherst fell 58 spots, from the Top 10 all the way down to #67. 

[Pat Coleman]

Williams fell from 5 to out of the poll earlier in the season, right? Could happen but it's easier when you lost what Williams lost and then start the season 0-2.