Top 25 talk

[sac]

I believe Amherst has been in every poll since week 1 of the 2010-11 season.  They finished 2010 unranked and did not appear in the following pre-season poll.

[smedindy]

Say WashU loses that game.  What's the over under for number of schools getting a first place vote next week?  5.5?  6?  6.5?

If they lose... I said on Hoopsville it's a pick-em... Yeah... six might be a safe bet.

By the way, Amherst has lost their last two games - both at home - by an avereage of 19.5 points! They are off until Dec. 30 when they travel to Drew... they are then at Goucher (1/2) before heading to Eastern Connecticut (1/6)... before heading to Hamilton (1/9) and Williams (1/10). My bet is one night at Amherst and that coming before the Hamilton trip. Lose two in a row at home to end this part of the season... it isn't going to be a fun holiday break.

I realize that it all depends on how other teams do (can't assign a ranking in a vacuum!) but any estimate how you will place Amherst?  I'm guessing they would drop below 10; but below 15?

In the Massey Ratings Amherst fell 58 spots, from the Top 10 all the way down to #67.

That's not a fall, it's a plummet. THUD!

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

My opinion on Massey is dependent on many factors - I can sometimes take it and sometimes leave it - but I have read it by others several times already: isn't Massey at this point in the season a bit off. There is not enough information to breakdown accurate rankings in a computer that is lacking information. The old D1A college football system didn't release standings until halfway through the season for that very reason. Whether you like or dislike Massey, I think we have to wait until January to see if their rankings are legit because Amherst could jump 40 spots with a couple of wins on 12/30, 1/2, and 1/6.

[KnightSlappy]

My opinion on Massey is dependent on many factors - I can sometimes take it and sometimes leave it - but I have read it by others several times already: isn't Massey at this point in the season a bit off. There is not enough information to breakdown accurate rankings in a computer that is lacking information. The old D1A college football system didn't release standings until halfway through the season for that very reason. Whether you like or dislike Massey, I think we have to wait until January to see if their rankings are legit because Amherst could jump 40 spots with a couple of wins on 12/30, 1/2, and 1/6.

There is also not enough information at this point in the season for you or me to come up with accurate rankings in our brains that are lacking information.

[ziggy]

My opinion on Massey is dependent on many factors - I can sometimes take it and sometimes leave it - but I have read it by others several times already: isn't Massey at this point in the season a bit off. There is not enough information to breakdown accurate rankings in a computer that is lacking information. The old D1A college football system didn't release standings until halfway through the season for that very reason. Whether you like or dislike Massey, I think we have to wait until January to see if their rankings are legit because Amherst could jump 40 spots with a couple of wins on 12/30, 1/2, and 1/6.

There is also not enough information at this point in the season for you or me to come up with accurate rankings in our brains that are lacking information.

Isn't any of this kind of beside the point considering any residual data would make Amherst look better, not worse? Any historical data used to fill early season holes by Massey will to be Amherst's benefit in the rankings.

[Titan Q]

My opinion on Massey is dependent on many factors - I can sometimes take it and sometimes leave it - but I have read it by others several times already: isn't Massey at this point in the season a bit off. There is not enough information to breakdown accurate rankings in a computer that is lacking information. The old D1A college football system didn't release standings until halfway through the season for that very reason. Whether you like or dislike Massey, I think we have to wait until January to see if their rankings are legit because Amherst could jump 40 spots with a couple of wins on 12/30, 1/2, and 1/6.

Any ranking is going to be a bit off this time of year.  Honestly, I think Massey might have a chance to be more accurate at this point than the subjective polls. 

[sac]

My opinion on Massey is dependent on many factors - I can sometimes take it and sometimes leave it - but I have read it by others several times already: isn't Massey at this point in the season a bit off. There is not enough information to breakdown accurate rankings in a computer that is lacking information. The old D1A college football system didn't release standings until halfway through the season for that very reason. Whether you like or dislike Massey, I think we have to wait until January to see if their rankings are legit because Amherst could jump 40 spots with a couple of wins on 12/30, 1/2, and 1/6.

Some teams have already played as much as 1/3 of their season though.  That's not a small amount of data.

[smedindy]

I never really look at power rankings seriously until after December. Schedules are out of sync until then, it seems. Some play a lot then hibernate, while others space their games out.

I do look at them to see who's naughty and nice, though.

Massey hasn't solved the 'exhibition for me, not for thee' issue consistently. But really, it's not his fault; since he includes all results (unlike Sagarin or Ken Pom) he's gotta put those games on somewhere if they count for someone. He did leave off a women's game that counted for CWU against Evergreen (love those Geoducks) because it was an exhibition for them. However, Alaska - Anchorage got to 'exhibition' its three games in the Shootout this year, but Massey counted them. Maybe it's a D-1 thing since most everyone pays attention there primarily, or it may be an NCAA / NAIA thing.

The solution would be that the games count for both or they don't but that would be too rational for the NCAA / NAIA or whoever.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I look to Massey for SOS numbers mostly (especially at this time of year).  They may not be super accurate on the minute level (comparing #234 to @276), but they're quite helpful for comparing #34 to #398.

For example, I knew Amherst's early schedule was weak, but Massey helped to show just how weak.

[Gregory Sager]

My opinion on Massey is dependent on many factors - I can sometimes take it and sometimes leave it - but I have read it by others several times already: isn't Massey at this point in the season a bit off. There is not enough information to breakdown accurate rankings in a computer that is lacking information. The old D1A college football system didn't release standings until halfway through the season for that very reason. Whether you like or dislike Massey, I think we have to wait until January to see if their rankings are legit because Amherst could jump 40 spots with a couple of wins on 12/30, 1/2, and 1/6.

There is also not enough information at this point in the season for you or me to come up with accurate rankings in our brains that are lacking information.

Considering D-Mac's frantic search for darts and a dartboard to help him construct his latest ballot, I sense that you're preaching to the choir on this one, O Dean of KnightSlappy U.

My opinion on Massey is dependent on many factors - I can sometimes take it and sometimes leave it - but I have read it by others several times already: isn't Massey at this point in the season a bit off. There is not enough information to breakdown accurate rankings in a computer that is lacking information. The old D1A college football system didn't release standings until halfway through the season for that very reason. Whether you like or dislike Massey, I think we have to wait until January to see if their rankings are legit because Amherst could jump 40 spots with a couple of wins on 12/30, 1/2, and 1/6.

Any ranking is going to be a bit off this time of year.  Honestly, I think Massey might have a chance to be more accurate at this point than the subjective polls. 

... which isn't saying much.

Some teams have already played as much as 1/3 of their season though.  That's not a small amount of data.

But some have played a lot less than that. As smeds said, once everybody's skeds sync up, Massey becomes much more useful.

I just don't think that there's enough "connectivity" yet in the results ledger to make Massey really accurate. I think that HF's right about it being much more useful to establish gross percentiles than the sort of minute shakedown that would distinguish teams within, say, 30 to 50 spots of each other.

[Pat Coleman]

It's interesting, for sure. John Carroll had played just four games before this weekend (weather). But by the end of December, Massey will be as interconnected as it's likely to be -- what it will lack is intraconnection, since we will have had so few conference games at that point. But most of the non-conference games, and really, the vast majority of the interregional games will have taken place.

[Titan Q]

Video for #5 Illinois Wesleyan @ #3 Wash U - http://portal.stretchinternet.com/wustl/.

Tipping soon.

[magicman]

Excellent game going on between Wash U and Illinois Wesleyan. IWU was down by as much as 13 points in the 1st half but has come all the way back to gain a 1 point 53-52 lead with 16:16 left to play.

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (Complete)

Games played on a neutral court are now identified: "def. (n)" means "defeated on a neutral court", and "LOST to (n)" means "lost on a neutral court."  (If you note any such games are NOT identified, it either means the changes to my program need some more work, or those games are not marked as occurring on a neutral court on the d3hoops.com scoreboard.)

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	593	UW-Whitewater	6-2	LOST at #4 Augustana, 94-96
#2	586	Amherst	5-2	LOST to Brandeis, 58-78; LOST to #23 Babson, 49-68
#3	582	Washington U.	10-0	won at Webster, 80-70; def. #5 Illinois Wesleyan, 90-72
#4	524	Augustana	7-1	def. #1 UW-Whitewater, 96-94
#5	496	Illinois Wesleyan	6-2	LOST at #3 Washington U., 72-90
#6	450	Ohio Wesleyan	8-1	LOST at Trine, 82-87; def. Hiram, 92-84
#7	404	Richard Stockton	10-0	won at Rutgers-Camden, 82-66; won at Rutgers-Newark, 48-45
#8	398	St. Thomas	7-1	def. St. Mary's (Minn.), 75-43; won at Augsburg, 57-40
#9	391	Emory	7-1	won at Covenant, 72-59
#10	381	Dickinson	8-1	def. (n) #16 North Central (Ill.), 80-73; won at Juniata, 65-59
#11	356	Virginia Wesleyan	7-1	won at #31 Christopher Newport, 84-83
#12	317	WPI	8-1	won at Newbury, 65-53; def. Massachusetts College, 74-61
#13	272	Albertus Magnus	7-1	def. New Jersey City, 88-82
#14	271	Centre	6-0	IDLE
#15	269	MIT	7-3	def. Emmanuel, 63-42; LOST at #43 Rhode Island College, 37-53; LOST at Bridgewater State, 77-84
#16	234	North Central (Ill.)	7-1	LOST to (n) #10 Dickinson, 73-80; def. (n) Penn State York, 87-67
#17	218	Wooster	5-2	def. Wabash, 81-52
#18	167	Scranton	6-1	def. Merchant Marine, 83-70
#19	160	Eastern Connecticut	8-1	IDLE
#20	153	St. Norbert	7-0	won at UW-Eau Claire, 66-55
#21	138	UW-Stevens Point	7-2	won at UW-Stout, 73-56; won at Lawrence, 60-49
#22	110	Randolph-Macon	5-2	IDLE
#23	94	Babson	8-1	won at #2 Amherst, 68-49
#24	79	Claremont-Mudd-Scripps	6-1	won at West Coast Baptist, 80-57
#25	68	Marietta	8-0	won at Heidelberg, 83-77

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	38	Chapman	6-0	def. La Sierra, 89-72
T#27	35	Calvin	5-3	IDLE
T#27	35	Williams	7-2	IDLE
#29	34	Lynchburg	6-1	IDLE
#30	31	St. Olaf	7-1	won at St. John's, 84-73; def. Carleton, 73-70
#31	29	Christopher Newport	5-2	LOST to #11 Virginia Wesleyan, 83-84
#32	26	Franklin and Marshall	9-0	def. Albright, 74-70
#33	25	Bates	7-0	IDLE
#34	23	DePauw	5-3	def. Earlham, 69-49; LOST at Oberlin, 63-67
#35	19	Cabrini	5-3	IDLE
#36	18	Dubuque	8-1	won at Bethany Lutheran, 85-62; LOST at Elmhurst, 93-98
#37	16	Hardin-Simmons	7-0	def. Southwestern, 81-63
#38	15	Keene State	8-0	def. Southern Maine, 74-67
#39	14	Chicago	6-3	won at Kalamazoo, 72-53
T#40	10	Widener	8-2	won at Swarthmore, 70-65; LOST at T#47 Stevenson, 65-73
T#40	10	Marymount	7-0	IDLE
T#40	10	Cortland State	7-0	won at SUNYIT, 75-49
#43	5	Rhode Island College	8-3	LOST at Johnson and Wales, 65-77; def. #15 MIT, 53-37; won at Mass-Boston, 89-63
T#44	4	Middlebury	7-0	IDLE
T#44	4	Western Connecticut	7-0	def. Pine Manor, 114-99; won at Worcester State, 95-52
#46	3	Bowdoin	6-3	def. Maine Maritime, 71-49; won at Maine-Farmington, 72-41
T#47	2	DeSales	7-3	won at Penn State-Berks, 80-64; LOST at Muhlenberg, 57-86
T#47	2	Whitworth	3-2	IDLE
T#47	2	Stevenson	7-2	def. T#40 Widener, 73-65
T#50	1	Gustavus Adolphus	7-1	won at Carleton, 63-57; def. Hamline, 82-61
T#50	1	Misericordia	7-2	IDLE
T#50	1	Wheaton (Ill.)	6-3	won at Alma, 85-65
T#50	1	Central	6-2	won at Westminster (Mo.), 91-68; won at St. Ambrose, 86-84; LOST to Mount Mercy, 46-73

[smedindy]

Just a couple upsets away from the ultimate TGHIJGSTO!!!