Top 25 talk

[sac]

TGHIJGSTO getting double teamed by Franklin and Marshall. F&M is up 20 in the 2nd half

don't say things just to say things

[wooscotsfan]

Since the last Top 25 poll, here are the losses by teams in the Top 25:

#4 Richard Stockton lost at #25 Franklin & Marshall
#8 Virginia Wesleyan lost at #7 Emory
#9 Illinois Wesleyan lost twice, at Cal Lutheran and at #21 North Central
#10 Ohio Wesleyan lost at Hope
#13 Centre lost twice, at Johns Hopkins and at Sewanee
#16 Scranton lost to Husson at a neutral site
#18 St. Norbert lost at home to John Carroll
#19 Eastern Connecticut lost to #24 Marietta at a neutral site
#20 UW Stevens Point lost at #6 St. Thomas
#23 Claremont Mudd Scripps lost at home to #20 UW Stevens Point

Have to think that both #24 Marietta (now 12-0) and #25 Franklin & Marshall (now 11-0) will move up significantly with their quality wins and the losses by teams just above them in the poll.

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	Record	Results
#1	621	Washington U.	11-0	won at Coe, 88-78
#2	587	Augustana	11-1	won at MacMurray, 78-73; def. (n) Luther, 87-59; def. (n) Coe, 71-66; won at Carthage, 73-42
#3	555	UW-Whitewater	10-2	def. Monmouth, 74-54; def. Kalamazoo, 89-53; def. Beloit, 92-51; won at UW-River Falls, 67-63
#4	552	Richard Stockton	11-1	def. (n) #31 Lynchburg, 62-60; LOST at #25 Franklin and Marshall, 63-71
#5	473	Dickinson	10-1	won at Alvernia, 71-64; won at York (N.Y.), 83-71
#6	458	St. Thomas	9-1	def. #20 UW-Stevens Point, 68-66; won at Carleton, 74-69
#7	438	Emory	10-1	def. #28 Bates, 84-65; def. Union, 83-67; def. #8 Virginia Wesleyan, 77-64
#8	413	Virginia Wesleyan	9-2	def. Mary Washington, 81-60; won at North Carolina Wesleyan, 91-59; LOST at #7 Emory, 64-77
#9	397	Illinois Wesleyan	8-4	def. Loras, 94-72; def. (n) Nazareth, 84-41; LOST at Cal Lutheran, 61-67; LOST at #21 North Central (Ill.), 72-78
#10	355	Ohio Wesleyan	9-2	def. Otterbein, 92-81; LOST at Hope, 61-87
#11	323	WPI	10-1	def. (n) T#29 Williams, 73-71; def. (n) FDU-Florham, 76-39
#12	313	Albertus Magnus	8-1	def. #42 Western Connecticut, 110-92
#13	294	Centre	9-2	def. (n) Huntingdon, 71-55; def. (n) MacMurray, 70-48; LOST to (n) Johns Hopkins, 51-66; def. (n) Elmira, 86-60; LOST at Sewanee, 51-53
#14	241	Wooster	9-2	won at Pitt-Bradford, 89-67; def. UW-La Crosse, 66-58; def. Hope, 78-75; won at Denison, 95-72
#15	235	Amherst	7-2	won at Drew, 78-74; won at Goucher, 80-76
#16	224	Scranton	9-2	LOST to (n) Husson, 74-79; def. (n) Hanover, 64-61; won at King's, 86-83; def. (n) Wilkes, 75-73
#17	194	Babson	10-1	def. Colby, 72-65; won at Elms, 86-57
#18	191	St. Norbert	10-1	won at Illinois College, 87-58; def. St. Scholastica, 82-55; LOST to John Carroll, 70-80; won at Cornell, 66-48
#19	188	Eastern Connecticut	10-2	LOST to (n) #24 Marietta, 78-79; def. (n) Messiah, 87-80; def. Plymouth State, 66-41
#20	152	UW-Stevens Point	9-3	LOST at #6 St. Thomas, 66-68; won at Pomona-Pitzer, 57-49; won at #23 Claremont-Mudd-Scripps, 71-65
#21	149	North Central (Ill.)	11-1	won at Benedictine, 65-64; def. Olivet, 76-54; def. (n) Adrian, 75-69; def. #9 Illinois Wesleyan, 78-72
#22	140	Randolph-Macon	9-2	def. #40 Cabrini, 105-92; def. Averett, 74-69; def. Carroll, 85-56; def. Baruch, 80-65
#23	110	Claremont-Mudd-Scripps	8-2	def. Westmont, 79-64; LOST to #20 UW-Stevens Point, 65-71; def. Redlands, 68-44
#24	83	Marietta	12-0	won at Baldwin Wallace, 86-77; def. John Carroll, 82-68; def. (n) #19 Eastern Connecticut, 79-78; def. (n) Mass-Dartmouth, 83-63
#25	54	Franklin and Marshall	11-0	def. Immaculata, 77-73; def. #4 Richard Stockton, 71-63

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	Record	Results
#26	44	Chapman	10-0	won at La Sierra, 81-58; def. Oberlin, 72-50; def. St. Joseph's (Bklyn.), 75-68; won at Whittier, 82-68
#27	37	St. Olaf	9-1	def. Northwestern (Minn.), 85-60; def. T#34 Gustavus Adolphus, 85-61
#28	35	Bates	8-2	LOST at #7 Emory, 65-84; LOST to (n) Birmingham-Southern, 72-76; won at Southern Vermont, 72-67
T#29	34	Williams	9-3	LOST to (n) #11 WPI, 71-73; won at Salem State, 84-77; won at Endicott, 79-76
T#29	34	MIT	7-3	IDLE
#31	31	Lynchburg	8-3	def. #37 Marymount, 69-62; won at Penn St. Mont Alto, 77-68; LOST to (n) #4 Richard Stockton, 60-62; LOST to (n) Immaculata, 58-62
#32	21	Chicago	8-3	def. North Park, 90-86; def. Illinois Tech, 84-31
#33	19	Hardin-Simmons	10-1	won at Howard Payne, 77-59; def. Sul Ross State, 90-66; LOST to Texas Lutheran, 54-77; def. Louisiana College, 89-66
T#34	18	Gustavus Adolphus	7-2	LOST at #27 St. Olaf, 61-85
T#34	18	Christopher Newport	8-3	LOST at Salisbury, 48-54; def. Otterbein, 71-55; def. Hood, 75-68; def. York (Pa.), 95-61
#36	15	Cortland State	8-0	def. Medaille, 76-48
#37	14	Marymount	9-2	LOST at #31 Lynchburg, 62-69; def. (n) Maryville (Tenn.), 57-49; def. (n) Roanoke, 76-62; LOST at Mary Washington, 64-66
#38	11	Stevenson	9-3	won at Macalester, 61-58; won at Allegheny, 83-72; LOST at Albright, 58-59
#39	10	Rhode Island College	8-3	IDLE
#40	9	Cabrini	5-5	LOST at #22 Randolph-Macon, 92-105; LOST at Rosemont, 78-85
#41	8	Calvin	7-4	LOST at Ripon, 80-86; won at UW-Oshkosh, 75-63; won at Finlandia, 82-68
#42	6	Western Connecticut	8-1	LOST at #12 Albertus Magnus, 92-110; won at Western New England, 83-57
T#43	5	Middlebury	8-0	def. Salve Regina, 94-66
T#43	5	Dubuque	10-1	def. (n) Birmingham-Southern, 76-62; def. (n) Bridgewater (Va.), 58-51
T#45	4	Bethel	7-2	won at UW-La Crosse, 84-62; LOST to St. John's, 67-69
T#45	4	Keene State	9-1	LOST to Plattsburgh State, 94-99; won at Castleton State, 84-65
#47	3	Widener	9-4	won at Drew, 80-69; LOST to St. Mary's (Md.), 46-60; LOST at Lycoming, 64-69
#48	2	Wheaton (Ill.)	7-5	won at Trinity (Texas), 68-63; LOST to (n) Texas Lutheran, 56-63; LOST at Elmhurst, 75-83

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

This is just a crazy year.  WashU, I think, clearly has the best resume thus far, but it doesn't look anything like a team you'd be comfortable voting #1 in most years.

I've gotten to see a fair number of squads in person: Albertus Magnus, Richard Stockton, WPI, Chicago, Cabrini, Grynedd-Mercy, Randolph-Macon, Mary Hardin-Baylor, Purchase, and Wittenberg.  I'm going to attempt to see both Dickinson and F&M at Washington College (right down the road from here) in the next few weeks.

I just don't think I've ever seen so many teams capable of competing with the best.  To me there's only about 15 teams really worthy of being ranked and another thirty pretty competitive for the last ten actual ranking spots.

It's been said over and over, but an absolutely nuts year.

[7express]

This is just a crazy year.  WashU, I think, clearly has the best resume thus far, but it doesn't look anything like a team you'd be comfortable voting #1 in most years.

I've gotten to see a fair number of squads in person: Albertus Magnus, Richard Stockton, WPI, Chicago, Cabrini, Grynedd-Mercy, Randolph-Macon, Mary Hardin-Baylor, Purchase, and Wittenberg.  I'm going to attempt to see both Dickinson and F&M at Washington College (right down the road from here) in the next few weeks.

I just don't think I've ever seen so many teams capable of competing with the best.  To me there's only about 15 teams really worthy of being ranked and another thirty pretty competitive for the last ten actual ranking spots.

It's been said over and over, but an absolutely nuts year.

There my #1 because there's not many better choices.  The only other 2 unbeaten I have Marietta & F&M are too low in the polls to make that jump.

[sac]

This is just a crazy year.  WashU, I think, clearly has the best resume thus far, but it doesn't look anything like a team you'd be comfortable voting #1 in most years.

I've gotten to see a fair number of squads in person: Albertus Magnus, Richard Stockton, WPI, Chicago, Cabrini, Grynedd-Mercy, Randolph-Macon, Mary Hardin-Baylor, Purchase, and Wittenberg.  I'm going to attempt to see both Dickinson and F&M at Washington College (right down the road from here) in the next few weeks.

I just don't think I've ever seen so many teams capable of competing with the best.  To me there's only about 15 teams really worthy of being ranked and another thirty pretty competitive for the last ten actual ranking spots.

It's been said over and over, but an absolutely nuts year.

There my #1 because there's not many better choices.  The only other 2 unbeaten I have Marietta & F&M are too low in the polls to make that jump.

Sometimes you just have to bite that bullet and admit defeat.

Marietta will be an interesting team to watch.  They've already beaten JCU and Baldwin-Wallace leaving only 4 games with Mt. Union(2), JCU and BW remaining.  No one else in the OAC should bother them, but its the OAC and surely someone will at some point.

[HOPEful]

There my #1 because there's not many better choices.  The only other 2 unbeaten I have Marietta & F&M are too low in the polls to make that jump."

For what it's worth, Marrietta is #2 in the Massay ratings. Franklin and Marshall down at 17.

Not that I expect them to be high, but what's with the lack of votes for Hope, #9 in Massay but only 5 TOTAL POINTS on D3hoops.com?! I thought it would be a long shot that they would crack the top 25, but expected them a little higher on the ladder than 5 points.

[sac]

There my #1 because there's not many better choices.  The only other 2 unbeaten I have Marietta & F&M are too low in the polls to make that jump."

For what it's worth, Marrietta is #2 in the Massay ratings. Franklin and Marshall down at 17.

Not that I expect them to be high, but what's with the lack of votes for Hope, #9 in Massay but only 5 TOTAL POINTS on D3hoops.com?! I thought it would be a long shot that they would crack the top 25, but expected them a little higher on the ladder than 5 points.

4 losses is probably 1 too many for most voters.  You only get points if you get someone's top 25 slot so not surprising they aren't on many ballots.  There are still a lot of 1, 2 and 3 loss teams out there.



Elmhurst, ranked '#28', is a good team I've seen in person, but they aren't better than Hope......or ya know, Albion!.......who also might be better than Hope.

[Greek Tragedy]

Hipe is #9 becasue they've play Whitewater,  Stevens Point,  Wooster and Ohio Wesleyan.  But, they've only gone 1-3 in those games.

[HOPEful]

Elmhurst, ranked '#28', is a good team I've seen in person, but they aren't better than Hope......or ya know, Albion!.......who also might be better than Hope.

And a respectable 38 in Massey. The non- Hope/Calvin MIAA teams are looking stronger this year than they have been in a while

[sac]

Hipe is #9 becasue they've play Whitewater,  Stevens Point,  Wooster and Ohio Wesleyan.  But, they've only gone 1-3 in those games.

a two point loss and a 3 point loss.  I think Hope's shown they can play with anyone.  Win those games and people would be falling all over themselves to rank them in the top 10.  The poll is a fickle beast.


One team is ranked the other isn't...

losses to:
7-5  by 1
11-0  by 18
11-1  by 6
7-3 by 6

losses to
10-2  by 2
9-3  by 11
9-7 by 4
9-2 by 3



...fickle

[Greek Tragedy]

You also have to take into account o  where they start the season. IWU started 437 points ahead of Hope. Its harder to gain points than to lose points, IMO. IWU has dropped over 400 points in four losses. Hope has dropped 33.

[AndOne]

Since the last Top 25 poll, here are the losses by teams in the Top 25:

#4 Richard Stockton lost at #25 Franklin & Marshall
#8 Virginia Wesleyan lost at #7 Emory
#9 Illinois Wesleyan lost twice, to Cal Lutheran, and to #21 North Central
#10 Ohio Wesleyan lost at Hope
#13 Centre lost twice, at Johns Hopkins and at Sewanee
#16 Scranton lost to Husson at a neutral site
#18 St. Norbert lost at home to John Carroll
#19 Eastern Connecticut lost to #24 Marietta at a neutral site
#20 UW Stevens Point lost at #6 St. Thomas
#23 Claremont Mudd Scripps lost at home to #20 UW Stevens Point

Have to think that both #24 Marietta (now 12-0) and #25 Franklin & Marshall (now 11-0) will move up significantly with their quality wins and the losses by teams just above them in the poll.

Yet, despite losing their last 2 games and, at 8-4, having 2 more losses than anyone else in the Top 25 poll than 9-3 UWSP, IWU remains in the D3Hoops Top 25.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

IWU fell pretty far... at some point there is a cushion with the teams at the bottom. I left them in my Top 25 (barely) based on the fact that I ranked NCC and thus considered the loss not as extreme - though punished them for the Cal Lutheran loss. One more "hit" especially to lower CCIW team and they are gone for sure.

Per Hope... I went to look at their resume and when I saw four losses decided against it. You can "play with anyone" but unless you can prove you can beat them, you still have four losses. I can't put a team like Hope on my ballot when they show they can beat up on Ohio Wesleyan, but can't beat Wooster or others. It doesn't add up. It tells me they are more streaky then good and that isn't a Top 25 resume. Give them time... if they keep winning and dominate against Calvin (surprisingly bad team this year in my opinion), then they will earn votes.

[Greek Tragedy]

They did drop 295 points.