Top 25 talk

[Greek Tragedy]

Dave,

You don't sound real high on Ohio Wesleyan, who beat Wooster in Wooster earlier this year.

[sac]

IWU fell pretty far... at some point there is a cushion with the teams at the bottom. I left them in my Top 25 (barely) based on the fact that I ranked NCC and thus considered the loss not as extreme - though punished them for the Cal Lutheran loss. One more "hit" especially to lower CCIW team and they are gone for sure.

Per Hope... I went to look at their resume and when I saw four losses decided against it. You can "play with anyone" but unless you can prove you can beat them, you still have four losses. I can't put a team like Hope on my ballot when they show they can beat up on Ohio Wesleyan, but can't beat Wooster or others. It doesn't add up. It tells me they are more streaky then good and that isn't a Top 25 resume. Give them time... if they keep winning and dominate against Calvin (surprisingly bad team this year in my opinion), then they will earn votes.

........by the way the teams Hope beat have a better overall record than those IWU has beat, by 6 games.

Is IWU more "streaky" than good?



So they have to "dominate" Calvin, that's a pretty ridiculous assertion I think.  Seriously?  dominate them?

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

That isn't what I am saying... in fact, you prove my point. Hope beats Ohio Wesleyan but lost to Wooster... who lost to Ohio Wesleyan. I am not knocking Ohio Wesleyan... I am knocking the ability for Hope to put it together every game. They can beat Ohio Wesleyan but can't beat Wooster. If they are a Top 25 team their win against Ohio Wesleyan would also have a win over Wooster to compliment it.

As for my thoughts on Ohio Wesleyan, they can be found in this week's blog: http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2015/01/06/daves-top-25-ballot/

"Talk about a meteoric rise; a picture of the Battling Bishops would be in the Division III dictionary next to meteoric the way they started the season. That start included a convincing win over Calvin before dispatching Wooster and Denison a few weeks later. Since then, OWU is 2-2 with losses to Trine and Hope in the last month (and the Hope loss was bad). I'm not sure if most of us bought into Mike DeWitt's squad took much (he certainly thinks we did), but with Wittenberg, Allegheny, and Wabash ahead before facing DePauw, once again our answers will only come if there are losses."

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

IWU fell pretty far... at some point there is a cushion with the teams at the bottom. I left them in my Top 25 (barely) based on the fact that I ranked NCC and thus considered the loss not as extreme - though punished them for the Cal Lutheran loss. One more "hit" especially to lower CCIW team and they are gone for sure.

Per Hope... I went to look at their resume and when I saw four losses decided against it. You can "play with anyone" but unless you can prove you can beat them, you still have four losses. I can't put a team like Hope on my ballot when they show they can beat up on Ohio Wesleyan, but can't beat Wooster or others. It doesn't add up. It tells me they are more streaky then good and that isn't a Top 25 resume. Give them time... if they keep winning and dominate against Calvin (surprisingly bad team this year in my opinion), then they will earn votes.

........by the way the teams Hope beat have a better overall record than those IWU has beat, by 6 games.

Is IWU more "streaky" than good?



So they have to "dominate" Calvin, that's a pretty ridiculous assertion I think.  Seriously?  dominate them?

I would like to see Hope prove themselves... so yes. Dominate. Calvin is clearly down from expectations. If they were to lose to Calvin (and yes, I get it is a big rival), then I am not sure a fifth loss would garner anything. Furthermore, squeaking one out doesn't tell me anything either. Dominate and Hope is clearly a player.

[sac]

IWU fell pretty far... at some point there is a cushion with the teams at the bottom. I left them in my Top 25 (barely) based on the fact that I ranked NCC and thus considered the loss not as extreme - though punished them for the Cal Lutheran loss. One more "hit" especially to lower CCIW team and they are gone for sure.

Per Hope... I went to look at their resume and when I saw four losses decided against it. You can "play with anyone" but unless you can prove you can beat them, you still have four losses. I can't put a team like Hope on my ballot when they show they can beat up on Ohio Wesleyan, but can't beat Wooster or others. It doesn't add up. It tells me they are more streaky then good and that isn't a Top 25 resume. Give them time... if they keep winning and dominate against Calvin (surprisingly bad team this year in my opinion), then they will earn votes.

........by the way the teams Hope beat have a better overall record than those IWU has beat, by 6 games.

Is IWU more "streaky" than good?



So they have to "dominate" Calvin, that's a pretty ridiculous assertion I think.  Seriously?  dominate them?

I would like to see Hope prove themselves... so yes. Dominate. Calvin is clearly down from expectations. If they were to lose to Calvin (and yes, I get it is a big rival), then I am not sure a fifth loss would garner anything. Furthermore, squeaking one out doesn't tell me anything either. Dominate and Hope is clearly a player.

With due respect Dave.  good grief.


So who has IWU proven they can beat?



Also I appreciate a voter willing to defend their votes and take the abuse.  I just don't get the answers I receive sometimes.  There seems to be one set of standards for some teams and another for others.

[sac]

That isn't what I am saying... in fact, you prove my point. Hope beats Ohio Wesleyan but lost to Wooster... who lost to Ohio Wesleyan. I am not knocking Ohio Wesleyan... I am knocking the ability for Hope to put it together every game. They can beat Ohio Wesleyan but can't beat Wooster. If they are a Top 25 team their win against Ohio Wesleyan would also have a win over Wooster to compliment it.

I just don't even know what to say to that.  They HAVE to beat Wooster, seriously?

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Every single team on the ballot has a different set of standards because you can't translate anything from one team to the next. I have seen Chicago in action... I take that information forward when looking at IWU (who I have seen on video only). But my criteria for what I am seeing with IWU and their schedule I certainly can't put with someone else on the ballot - teams are different. You might not like the answers you get, but I am also just one voter. Clearly I have been on a different page than many voters since I have had teams far higher than the national poll reveals and I have had teams far lower (just look at this week's ballot, for example).

This is hands down the most difficult year to vote. There are plenty of teams that deserve attention and trying to wade through the information is a challenge. I seriously thought about dropping IWU off my ballot this week, but the teams I had "behind" them didn't seem like teams that were better than IWU. I can't take them out of the poll if there isn't anyone I would put ahead of them; I can't move a team up or into the poll if I don't think they are better than the teams ahead of them.

Again, I moved NCC into the poll and head of IWU - that caused IWU's fall to be less severe than the 11-spot plunge they already had (falling to 22 on my ballot). Behind them are CMS, St. Olaf, and F&M... couldn't see them moving below those squads - at this point.

And just because you have one point of view doesn't mean mine is going to be the same, just as I don't expect yours to jive with mine. There is a reason there are 25 voters on the poll from across the country (all eight regions). And this year it is FAR harder than in years past.

That isn't what I am saying... in fact, you prove my point. Hope beats Ohio Wesleyan but lost to Wooster... who lost to Ohio Wesleyan. I am not knocking Ohio Wesleyan... I am knocking the ability for Hope to put it together every game. They can beat Ohio Wesleyan but can't beat Wooster. If they are a Top 25 team their win against Ohio Wesleyan would also have a win over Wooster to compliment it.

I just don't even know what to say to that.  They HAVE to beat Wooster, seriously?

To be a Top 25 team? YES! Do you want me to seriously put Hope on my ballot at 7-4 with a 1-3 against teams that really matter when the "1" is Ohio Wesleyan and the "3" includes Wooster who Ohio Wesleyan beat? If Hope is as good as a Top 25 team should be... than the win over Ohio Wesleyan would also translate into a win over Wooster. My wife joked with me that I should put Goucher on my Top 25 if they had beaten Amherst - she knew to joke with me accordingly because that isn't how it works. I was ready to put Hope on my ballot with the thumping they gave Ohio Wesleyan, but how can I justify it if they lost three others including to Wooster?

[sac]

To be a Top 25 team? YES! Do you want me to seriously put Hope on my ballot at 7-4 with a 1-3 against teams that really matter when the "1" is Ohio Wesleyan and the "3" includes Wooster who Ohio Wesleyan beat? If Hope is as good as a Top 25 team should be... than the win over Ohio Wesleyan would also translate into a win over Wooster. My wife joked with me that I should put Goucher on my Top 25 if they had beaten Amherst - she knew to joke with me accordingly because that isn't how it works. I was ready to put Hope on my ballot with the thumping they gave Ohio Wesleyan, but how can I justify it if they lost three others including to Wooster?

So shouldn't Ohio Wesleyan's win over Wooster be followed with a win over Trine and Hope......I mean, if they are a top 25 team.  You have them 13, and they didn't play anywhere near Hope's schedule, not even close.

[sac]

You still didn't answer who IWU beat to justify a top 25 slot, let alone be ahead of Hope on any poll.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Ohio Wesleyan: wins over Calvin (7-4), Wooster (9-2), Defiance (8-3), Denison (8-4) among others.
Hope: win over Ohio Wesleyan (9-2) and the only other good record I could find was Mount Union (8-3).

Yes... Hope has played a number of good teams, but they have lost to those teams (UW-Whitewater, UW-Stevens Point, Wooster). Their other wis are Cornerstone and Aquinas out of the division and Carthage, Wheaton, Pitt-Greensburg, and Spalding.

So how do I justify Hope? How do I dismiss Ohio Wesleyan?

[sac]

Ohio Wesleyan: wins over Calvin (7-4), Wooster (9-2), Defiance (8-3), Denison (8-4) among others.
Hope: win over Ohio Wesleyan (9-2) and the only other good record I could find was Mount Union (8-3).

Yes... Hope has played a number of good teams, but they have lost to those teams (UW-Whitewater, UW-Stevens Point, Wooster). Their other wis are Cornerstone and Aquinas out of the division and Carthage, Wheaton, Pitt-Greensburg, and Spalding.

So how do I justify Hope? How do I dismiss Ohio Wesleyan?

#13 though, with a loss to Trine and a Hope team that hasn't proven anything to you?

You've twisted this argument into some Hope guy wants his team ranked argument, again.  I never asked you to justify Hope, or Ohio Wesleyan even.  I pointed out OWU because I think the expectations you've heaped on Hope don't jibe with a team that lost twice to a much lesser opponent in Trine and a Hope team you feel needs to dominate Calvin to even get a look.  In your eyes shouldn't those OWU losses then be "bad" losses that cancel out beating Denison and Defiance?

I'm fine with Hope not being ranked, you can see that comment just after the poll came out.  But your assertions of what Hope has to do to be ranked for you don't jibe with what you expect other teams to do to be ranked for you.

I asked you who IWU beat to justify a ranking in the top 25.  I don't see how anyone can have them ahead of Hope on their poll.  7 weeks into a season, pre-season poll biases should be washed out by now.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

IWU beat Chicago. And preseason is pretty much playing no roll at this point. However, when a team is high there is a cushion to fall. It is harder to push upward as well.

I am not twisting the argument - I read surprise from a board member to my comment that a win over Wooster was needed by Hope when I pointed out why I didn't vote Hope on my ballot accordingly as an argument for why isn't Hope ranked.

[sac]

IWU beat Chicago. And preseason is pretty much playing no roll at this point. However, when a team is high there is a cushion to fall. It is harder to push upward as well.

I am not twisting the argument - I read surprise from a board member to my comment that a win over Wooster was needed by Hope when I pointed out why I didn't vote Hope on my ballot accordingly as an argument for why isn't Hope ranked.

Chicago is not equal to Ohio Wesleyan, not according the poll or your ballot.

Shouldn't then IWU be required by you to beat North Central like you require Hope to beat Wooster to be in the top 25?   10-1/9-2 both games on the road.  Hope lost by 3, IWU lost by 6

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Hope's got a decent resume, but it's tough to argue everyone should be voting for them.  IWU, on the other hand, is definitely riding on reputation.  Their best win is Chicago at home, a team that's not been as good as advertised this season.

Personally, I'd choose Hope over IWU in a poll right now, but it would have to be at least a coin toss in a head to head game.  Likely neither one deserves to be ranked.

[Pat Coleman]

I didn't vote for IWU based on that fact, but I can see why people might.

As someone pointed out when talking about UW-Oshkosh in football: They've proven to us they can lose to a good team. Now we need to see them win.