Top 25 talk

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

What a season of Division III basketball and it isn't quite over with yet! The men might have crowned their championship, but the women have one more game to go.

On this episode of Hoopsville, Dave McHugh looks back at the two championship weekends with help from Ryan Scott, Gordon Mann, and Adam Turer. We look at the championship for St. Thomas and the near perfect miss by Benedictine. We also take a look at the two semifinal games in women's basketball and the upcoming championship between St. Thomas and Tufts to be played in Indianapolis.

Dave also talks to Page Moir, head coach for Roanoke, who suddenly announced on Tuesday he is stepping down from the position and looking for something new to challenge him.

You can watch the show in its entirety or listen to the podcast above.

Guests include (in order of appearance):
- Page Moir, Roanoke men's coach
- Keith Bunkenburg, No. 2 Benedictine men's coach
- Steve Fritz, St. Thomas athletics director and former men's coach
- John Tauer, No 1. St. Thomas men's coach
- Ryan Scott, D3hoops.com Mid-Atlantic reporter
- Gordon Mann and Adam Turer, women's semifinals report
- Jeff Hans, No. 1 Thomas More women's coach
- Carla Berube, No. 7 Tufts women's coach

You can also tune into the podcast(s) after the show has aired:
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[Greek Tragedy]

It is interesting to note that last night's victory at Oswego was only the 2nd true road win for the Scots in their long tournament history, against 11 such defeats.  In the three years they have advanced to Salem, Wooster played nine tournament home games and two (the 2007 sectional) at a neutral site.

That's a very interesting stat. I wonder how that compares to road teams in general in the tournament.

I think it also speaks to the number of times they've hosted, which is a product of his successful they've been (and thus the top 25 conversation)

I'm sure a little has to do with geography as well. Sure you have to be good to earn it on most occasions and advance past the first weekend to have a shot at hosting again, but sometimes it's geography, plain and simple. Ask CNU.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Well... Wooster is centrally located and usually doesn't lose hosting chances to others in the pod. In my memory bank they usually have been the host due to rankings, not geography. That doesn't mean that and gender priority doesn't play a role, but I think for Wooster geography has played less of a role.

[Ralph Turner]

It is interesting to note that last night's victory at Oswego was only the 2nd true road win for the Scots in their long tournament history, against 11 such defeats.  In the three years they have advanced to Salem, Wooster played nine tournament home games and two (the 2007 sectional) at a neutral site.

That's a very interesting stat. I wonder how that compares to road teams in general in the tournament.

I think it also speaks to the number of times they've hosted, which is a product of his successful they've been (and thus the top 25 conversation)

I'm sure a little has to do with geography as well. Sure you have to be good to earn it on most occasions and advance past the first weekend to have a shot at hosting again, but sometimes it's geography, plain and simple. Ask CNU.

But geographic proximity is yyuuuugggge in Division 3.

I remember talking to Ron Holmes, the former McMurry coach, whose teams made the Elite 8 in 2000 and Sweet 16 in 2001.  He realized that an ASC team would likely never host an 8/16 men's weekend.  Even this year, one loss UT-Tyler women played undefeated GFU  in Minneapolis.

I would love the records  in post-season of D3 teams that fly versus:  (1) home/jhost teams; (2) non-flight teams on a neutral site.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

In men, the flying team tends not do as well, though Mary Hardin-Baylor proved that all wrong in 2013 winning at Whitworth and Salem (three games total) before flying to Atlanta.

On the women's side, the flying teams tend to fair much better as the fact NWC teams have ended up in the final four on several occasions.

[Greek Tragedy]

Checked out the Top 25 poll and more often than not, the champion was crowned #1 with all 25 1st place votes and the runner up was given the #2 spot. Made me think how many times that hasn't happened. Fear not...

Since the 2000 Final Poll, every champion,  has finished #1 with all 25 1st place votes and the runner up was 2nd. This was the case dating all the way back to the 2009 tournament. That year, Washington U. topped Richard Stockton in  the Final. RSC, though, finished just 5th in the Final Poll. Wheaton, St. Thomas and UWSP all finished ahead of RSC in the Final Poll.

This year, to remind you, was THEE Bracket of Death of all brackets of death. Going into the tourney, 7 of the top 8 in the Top 25 poll were all in the same sectional:

#1 UST lost to Washington U in the Elit 8
#3 Wheaton lost to Washington U in the Sweet 16
#4 UWSP lost to UST in the 2nd rd
#5 UW-Platteville lost to Wheaton in the 2nd rd
#7 Puget Sound lost to UST in the Sweet16
#8 UW-Whitewater lost to Washington U in 2nd rd.

Richard Stockton went into the tourney #6

It happened again in UWSP's 2nd championship in 2005. Point went into the tourney #1, while losing Finalist Rochester went in #21, but finished just 4th.

#14 Calvin finished 2nd in the Final Poll, losing to Rochester in the semis and #10 Trinity (tx) finished 3rd after losing to Point in the Elite 8.

It happened in 2003 when #24 Gustavus Adolphus lost to Williams in the final and finished #3. Wooster started the tourney #6 and lost to Williams in the semis to finish ahead of the Gusties in the Final Poll.

The previous year it happened as well. In the 2002 tourney, #6 Otterbein topped #4 Elizabethtown in the Final, but finished below #1 Carthage, who lost to Otterbein in the semis.

[Greek Tragedy]

And the women's UWSP team hosted #2 and undefeated George Fox.

[David Collinge]

Probably more a matter of "peaking at the right time;" if there's one program in D3 that generally does not get overlooked by the poll voters, it's Wooster.

Also a bracket that avoided the entire Great Lakes and Midwest Regions.

This.

No slight to the Scots, who are certainly very good, but ... this.

Hey, I'm not the one arguing they should be ranked -- although we all know, I am sure, that they've secured a top 15 slot in the final poll, regardless of what happens from here on out.

Wooster was really young and didn't play a great schedule.  They're surviving on ball control and one guy scoring.  They're going to be a great team next year, that's for sure.  I saw them play two games at Catholic and they weren't even the best team in that pod.  Obviously going on a run will help that impression, but unless they win tonight, I don't know that it would greatly change my perception on them right now.  Walking a tightrope, is how I'd describe them.

That being said, a lot of the teams near the bottom of my poll did poorly in the tournament and won't be ranked, so there will probably be room for Wooster - I just don't know that they're Top 15 (at least until the preseason poll this fall).

14th in the final poll.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Probably more a matter of "peaking at the right time;" if there's one program in D3 that generally does not get overlooked by the poll voters, it's Wooster.

Also a bracket that avoided the entire Great Lakes and Midwest Regions.

This.

No slight to the Scots, who are certainly very good, but ... this.

Hey, I'm not the one arguing they should be ranked -- although we all know, I am sure, that they've secured a top 15 slot in the final poll, regardless of what happens from here on out.

Wooster was really young and didn't play a great schedule.  They're surviving on ball control and one guy scoring.  They're going to be a great team next year, that's for sure.  I saw them play two games at Catholic and they weren't even the best team in that pod.  Obviously going on a run will help that impression, but unless they win tonight, I don't know that it would greatly change my perception on them right now.  Walking a tightrope, is how I'd describe them.

That being said, a lot of the teams near the bottom of my poll did poorly in the tournament and won't be ranked, so there will probably be room for Wooster - I just don't know that they're Top 15 (at least until the preseason poll this fall).

14th in the final poll.

I had them 23rd, so some people really liked them.  It seems there's a lot of priority put on the round you got to more than who you played.  Then again, I did watch those first two games in person.  We'll see.  I like their chances for next year, for sure.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I had them right at 15... only because I wasn't sure if I should move them down further. Those behind them started to become too difficult to move ahead of them. Personally, I probably have Wooster too high.

[David Collinge]

Just to be clear, my prediction of a top 15 placement for Wooster was just that-- a prediction. After 17 years of fairly close poll-watching, I have a certain amount of familiarity with how the poll works. I did not intend to comment on the merits of that ranking, one way or the other.

[nescac1]

Thought fans of the teams who have a shot of appearing in Salem would find this interesting, a great article on Roanoke ...

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/09/roanoke-virginia-redevelopment-what-works-214247

[Bucket]

It is, indeed, a great piece.

As some are aware, I grew up just north of Roanoke, and so much of this Politico story details events from my childhood and adolescence (1970s and '80s). So glad to see the Star City enjoying such a renaissance. 

[D3HoopJunkie]

When does the first preseason Top 25 Poll normally release?

I know I am a little early and all but I was just curious

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Usually in mid/late October. Shortly after practices begin if memory serves.