Top 25 talk

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (So Far)

My first trial run for the new season; I did not bother to look up missing scores as I usually would. I assume there will be a new poll on Monday, 11/28; I will post a complete report next Sunday (no midweek report this week).

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	590	Amherst	2-0	def. Green Mountain, 83-41; def. St. Lawrence, 90-68; 11/21 at Anna Maria
#2	582	Christopher Newport	2-1	def. Randolph-Macon, 70-47; def. (n) #35 UW-Stevens Point, 71-51; LOST to (n) #17 Marietta, 50-74; 11/27 at Dickinson
#3	545	Babson	4-0	def. Albertus Magnus, 101-81; def. Lasell, 90-72; def. Anna Maria, 99-49; def. #26 Endicott, 72-60; 11/22 vs. Becker; 11/27 vs. Bowdoin
#4	531	St. Norbert	1-1	LOST at UW-Eau Claire, 67-68; won at #6 Benedictine, 71-70
#5	465	Tufts	2-0	def. (n) FDU-Florham, 91-81; def. (n) Southern Virginia, 80-69; 11/22 at MIT; 11/26 vs. Emerson
#6	457	Benedictine	1-1	won at Wheaton (Ill.), 86-76; LOST to #4 St. Norbert, 70-71; 11/21 vs. #13 North Central (Ill.); 11/26 vs. #21 UW-Oshkosh
#7	446	Wooster	2-0	def. Oberlin, 104-65; def. Defiance, 98-63; 11/23 at #17 Marietta; 11/27 vs. St. John Fisher
#8	388	Ohio Wesleyan	2-0	def. (n) Albion, 91-77; won at Trine, 79-72; 11/22 vs. Capital; 11/26 vs. Illinois Wesleyan
#9	384	Whitman	1-0	def. St. Olaf, 108-78; 11/25 vs. Schreiner; 11/26 vs. #47 Texas Lutheran
#10	344	St. Thomas	2-1	LOST to T#53 UW-River Falls, 65-74; def. (n) Pacific Lutheran, 80-72; won at Puget Sound, 78-74; 11/22 vs. St. Scholastica
#11	306	John Carroll	0-1	LOST at Mount St. Joseph, 82-101; 11/20 vs. Hanover; 11/26 vs. La Roche
#12	289	Whitworth	1-0	def. St. Olaf, 70-69; 11/25 vs. #47 Texas Lutheran; 11/26 vs. Schreiner
#13	286	North Central (Ill.)	0-0	11/21 at #6 Benedictine; 11/23 vs. #14 Alma; 11/25 vs. Aurora
#14	261	Alma	1-2	def. Ohio Northern, 80-72; LOST to #18 Augustana, 77-89; LOST to Finlandia, 85-89; 11/23 at #13 North Central (Ill.); 11/27 vs. T#49 Elmhurst
#15	254	Emory	2-1	LOST at Covenant, 70-74; def. (n) William Peace, 100-80; won at Guilford, 69-66; 11/26 vs. LaGrange; 11/27 vs. Maryville (Tenn.)
#16	234	Virginia Wesleyan	3-0	def. Methodist, 99-61; def. Frostburg State, 78-62; def. Concordia (Texas), 101-94; 11/22 vs. T#45 Salisbury; 11/26 vs. Emory and Henry
#17	200	Marietta	3-0	def. La Roche, 101-75; def. (n) Albright, 74-56; def. (n) #2 Christopher Newport, 74-50; 11/23 vs. #7 Wooster; 11/27 vs. Bethany
#18	164	Augustana	3-0	won at MacMurray, 75-69; won at #14 Alma, 89-77; won at Calvin, 79-60; 11/22 vs. Fontbonne; 11/27 vs. #20 Washington U.
#19	146	Keene State	3-0	def. Southern Vermont, 87-60; won at Hartwick, 79-63; def. (n) SUNY Oneonta, 104-90; 11/22 vs. Springfield
#20	139	Washington U.	2-0	won at Webster, 60-59; won at DePauw, 84-77; 11/23 vs. Hanover; 11/27 at #18 Augustana
#21	128	UW-Oshkosh	1-1	def. (n) Iowa Wesleyan, 88-70; LOST at Wartburg, 72-83; 11/22 at Edgewood; 11/26 at #6 Benedictine
#22	127	Hope	2-0	won at UW-Stout, 70-50; def. (n) T#53 UW-River Falls, 90-81; 11/25 vs. Aquinas; 11/26 vs. Cornerstone
#23	117	Franklin and Marshall	2-0	def. Lancaster Bible, 94-91; def. York (Pa.), 91-71; 11/22 vs. Gettysburg; 11/27 at Lebanon Valley
#24	88	Middlebury	2-0	def. (n) Salem State, 82-55; won at Eastern Connecticut, 83-74; 11/22 vs. SUNY New Paltz; 11/27 vs. #26 Endicott
#25	86	Susquehanna	2-1	LOST to Misericordia, 116-120; def. Penn St.-Wilkes Barre, 91-58; def. King's, 78-65; 11/22 vs. #30 Lycoming; 11/27 at Penn State-Harrisburg

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	79	Endicott	1-1	def. (n) Anna Maria, 86-56; LOST at #3 Babson, 60-72; 11/27 at #24 Middlebury
#27	74	Oswego State	2-1	LOST to Nazareth, 57-63; def. SUNY-Maritime, 104-69; def. SUNY-Canton, 83-75; 11/22 vs. Clarkson; 11/26 vs. Colby; 11/27 vs. TBD
#28	60	Skidmore	3-0	def. Castleton, 77-61; def. (n) Randolph-Macon, 80-60; won at Stevenson, 81-70; 11/22 at Ithaca
#29	43	Swarthmore	2-0	def. Penn State-Abington, 69-52; won at Centenary (N.J.), 86-80; 11/22 vs. Washington College; 11/27 at Misericordia
#30	42	Lycoming	3-0	def. Fredonia, 80-66; def. Penn St.-Schuylkill, 111-81; def. Western Connecticut, 103-90; 11/22 at #25 Susquehanna; 11/27 vs. Penn State-Altoona
#31	36	Johnson and Wales	0-2	LOST to (n) St. Lawrence, 63-74; LOST to (n) Green Mountain, 70-73
#32	28	New Jersey City	2-1	won at York (N.Y.), 82-45; def. (n) Spalding, 59-53; LOST to (n) Baldwin Wallace, 61-64; 11/22 vs. Rutgers-Newark; 11/26 vs. Staten Island
#33	25	WPI	3-0	def. Eastern Connecticut, 76-62; def. Salve Regina, 59-55; def. #48 DeSales, 73-70; 11/22 at Worcester State
#34	24	Lynchburg	2-1	def. Johns Hopkins, 67-61; won at Stevenson, 101-80; LOST to (n) #35 UW-Stevens Point, 73-83; 11/22 at Ferrum; 11/26 at Washington and Lee
#35	21	UW-Stevens Point	1-2	LOST at St. Olaf, 55-63; LOST to (n) #2 Christopher Newport, 51-71; def. (n) #34 Lynchburg, 83-73; 11/26 at Lawrence
#36	18	Rochester	3-0	won at Ithaca, 104-94; def. Alfred, 71-62; def. Washington and Lee, 77-50; 11/22 vs. Hobart; 11/26 vs. Waynesburg; 11/27 vs. TBA
#37	16	UW-Whitewater	2-0	def. Colorado College, 90-71; def. Lindsey Wilson (Ky.), 85-78; 11/26 at Ohio Northern
#38	14	Trinity (Conn.)	0-2	LOST at Mass-Dartmouth, 76-83; LOST to (n) Southern Vermont, 80-83; 11/22 at Elms
#39	12	Birmingham-Southern	2-1	LOST at Baruch, 72-76; def. Rose-Hulman, 80-69; def. Wabash, 72-65; 11/22 vs. Covenant
#40	11	Hardin-Simmons	1-2	LOST to Southwestern, 95-98; def. Schreiner, 93-72; LOST to #47 Texas Lutheran, 66-90; 11/26 vs. Trinity (Texas)
T#41	10	Stockton	0-0	11/19 vs. SUNY-Old Westbury; 11/22 vs. Rowan
T#41	10	UW-La Crosse	1-0	won at Lakeland, 86-66; 11/22 at Viterbo; 11/25 at Webster; 11/26 vs. MacMurray
T#43	7	Northwestern (Minn.)	0-2	LOST to Hamline, 78-88; 11/18 vs. Trinity Bible (N.D.); LOST to Central, 61-76; 11/22 vs. Macalester
T#43	7	Roanoke	2-0	def. Worcester State, 78-60; def. Ferrum, 81-55; 11/22 at Bridgewater (Va.); 11/26 at North Carolina Wesleyan
T#45	6	Carroll	2-0	def. Principia, 75-57; def. Blackburn, 90-72; 11/22 at Rockford; 11/26 at Chicago; 11/27 vs. TBD
T#45	6	Salisbury	3-0	def. Goucher, 70-52; def. Staten Island, 83-65; def. Johns Hopkins, 74-49; 11/22 at #16 Virginia Wesleyan
#47	5	Texas Lutheran	3-0	def. Mary Hardin-Baylor, 87-84; won at McMurry, 80-72; won at #40 Hardin-Simmons, 90-66; 11/25 at #12 Whitworth; 11/26 vs. #9 Whitman
#48	3	DeSales	2-1	def. Rosemont, 94-60; def. (n) Bates, 71-70; LOST at #33 WPI, 70-73; 11/22 at Moravian
T#49	2	Bethel	1-1	LOST to (n) Heidelberg, 87-89; def. (n) Luther, 88-78; 11/22 vs. Martin Luther
T#49	2	Chapman	1-1	def. La Sierra, 88-63; LOST to San Diego Christian, 62-73; 11/23 at George Fox; 11/26 at Lewis and Clark
T#49	2	Elmhurst	0-3	LOST at Loras, 102-104; LOST to (n) Greenville, 98-110; LOST to (n) Westminster (Mo.), 81-88; 11/22 vs. Concordia-Chicago; 11/27 at #14 Alma
T#49	2	TCNJ	2-1	def. John Jay, 75-58; def. (n) T#53 SUNY Geneseo, 79-68; 11/20 vs. TBD; LOST to (n) Penn State-Harrisburg, 68-74; 11/22 vs. Rutgers-Camden
T#53	1	Neumann	1-0	def. Rowan, 113-96; 11/19 at Eastern; 11/22 vs. Keystone; 11/26 vs. Valley Forge
T#53	1	SUNY Geneseo	2-1	def. Medaille, 79-64; LOST to (n) T#49 TCNJ, 68-79; def. (n) New Rochelle, 86-74; 11/22 at Morrisville State
T#53	1	UW-River Falls	1-1	won at #10 St. Thomas, 74-65; 11/18 vs. Robert Morris-Chicago; LOST to (n) #22 Hope, 81-90; 11/22 at Carthage

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

You are correct, new poll on 11/28 - though, I am not looking forward to it. Already too much work to deal with. LOL

[woolax]

#7 Wooster @ #17 Marietta tomorrow, what do people think about this match up?

[Smitty Oom]

I think that the Wooster depth will be too much for the Pioneers. Should be a good game. AJ Edwards is sitting on a big game I think.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

You may think Wooster lacks depth, but Marietta has surprisingly good depth off the bench - I am taking the Pioneers because Wooster doesn't like playing out of their gym.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Marietta is more athletic than Wooster - I think their talent runs deeper into the lineup.  The other issue is pace of play.  Wooster can't run with Marietta, but Marietta has a good chance to hang with Wooster in a halfcourt game.  Wouldn't surprise me to see Wooster win, but I'd take Marietta to win 3 out of 4.

[kiltedbryan]

These are both deep, talented teams that have played well in the early going. Both are running 9-10 deep in their rotations, scoring efficiently (FG% 50%+), and playing stout defense (opp. FG% around 35%). CNU was expected to be Marietta's first test and they passed that with flying colors. That win, plus simply having another game played, gives Marietta an edge vs. a Wooster squad that hasn't had to break a sweat in either of its first games.

I am taking the Pioneers because Wooster doesn't like playing out of their gym.

This might be fair regarding Wooster's performance in true road games in the NCAA tournament over the years (which really is bad!), but consider me a skeptic regarding regular season games. Hard to run decades-long streaks of 20+ win seasons if you have some systemic issue with winning games on the road. More likely, it's just harder to beat good teams, period, regardless of where the contest occurs. 

[smedindy]

To be fair, games at Kenyon or Oberlin or Earlham (back in the day) don't really fill people with fear and loathing.

[Mr. Ypsi]

To be fair, games at Kenyon or Oberlin or Earlham (back in the day) don't really fill people with fear and loathing.

Well, not fear, but maybe on the 'loathing'!

[kiltedbryan]

Well in the end the venue didn't seem to matter all that much, as Marietta out-classed Wooster throughout and notched a wire-to-wire 99-70 victory. The Pioneers are *good.*

[Smitty Oom]

Yeah dang, was I wrong. I am all in on Marietta now LOL. They will see a nice bump in the next poll. Top 5 you think?

[kiltedbryan]

Yeah dang, was I wrong. I am all in on Marietta now LOL. They will see a nice bump in the next poll. Top 5 you think?

Assuming each wins its remaining game before the next poll, I could imagine the next poll basically swapping Wooster and Marietta's poll positions. Wooster might lose around half its poll points and end up somewhere in the high teens (e.g., a loss of 225 points = the average voter dropping the Scots nine spots). And Marietta would gain at least an equal number of points, probably more, and lands solidly within the top 7.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Yeah dang, was I wrong. I am all in on Marietta now LOL. They will see a nice bump in the next poll. Top 5 you think?

Assuming each wins its remaining game before the next poll, I could imagine the next poll basically swapping Wooster and Marietta's poll positions. Wooster might lose around half its poll points and end up somewhere in the high teens (e.g., a loss of 225 points = the average voter dropping the Scots nine spots). And Marietta would gain at least an equal number of points, probably more, and lands solidly within the top 7.

Since #17 Marietta beat #2 CNU by 24 before beating #7 Wooster by 29, I'd be shocked if they didn't land in the top 5, and probably receive a handful of #1 votes.  Assuming, of course, no shocks before the next vote.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

Yeah dang, was I wrong. I am all in on Marietta now LOL. They will see a nice bump in the next poll. Top 5 you think?

Assuming each wins its remaining game before the next poll, I could imagine the next poll basically swapping Wooster and Marietta's poll positions. Wooster might lose around half its poll points and end up somewhere in the high teens (e.g., a loss of 225 points = the average voter dropping the Scots nine spots). And Marietta would gain at least an equal number of points, probably more, and lands solidly within the top 7.

Since #17 Marietta beat #2 CNU by 24 before beating #7 Wooster by 29, I'd be shocked if they didn't land in the top 5, and probably receive a handful of #1 votes.  Assuming, of course, no shocks before the next vote.

Surely the lowest that can be justified right now is 3 after Amherst and Babson, and 2 can easily be argued since they beat 2 at neutral, and then also beat 7 -- both handily. The only other one I could see maybe jumping in there is North Central with what they have coming up. If they swept, you'd have to consider them as well I think.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

The problem for Marietta is how far down did some voters have them? They were slotted 17... and I know voters who had them higher than that which obviously means there are voters who had them lower. Those lower voters have to make a tough decision - pole vault the Pioneers into the Top 5 when they had reasons to not have them very high to begin with or move them up a bit less aggressively (say Top 10 instead of Top 5)... those decisions by those voters will dictate how this turns out.

As for number one votes, those who didn't vote for Amherst or Babson are the ones who will probably decide how many votes go Marietta's way. I am not sure if those who vote for Amherst or Babson, like myself, will jump ship based on a couple of weeks of games. Too many other variables and questions outside of just Marietta to consider. That said, they have certainly made a statement so Monday's poll will be fascinating to watch.

Per the comment about Wooster rattling off so many 20+ win seasons and thus should do well on the road, I do argue this: Wooster plays a lot of home games on their schedule and it is hard to get them out of their place (much like F&M and others), so the road games usually come down to conference games and a few out-of-conference and I have not known Wooster to usually schedule too many difficult games out-of-conference on the road. The fact they played at Marietta is a welcome sign, though the tub-thumping might have them resort back to their former days.