Top 25 talk

[whyDiii]

Quite a few bits and bytes about a ranking in November...

There is no avoiding the controversy this early as most people have seen less than half of the top 25 teams(my guess). Definitely a lot of bickering for the second poll of 2016! As of right now I think the movement has made sense and is easily justifiable. Bottom of the top 25 indeed always a crap shoot this early.

[HOPEful]

There is no avoiding the controversy this early as most people have seen less than half of the top 25 teams(my guess). Definitely a lot of bickering for the second poll of 2016...

Just don't say Edwards isn't as good as McCarthy, Palleschi, and Flannery. Don't even imply it!!

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

There is no avoiding the controversy this early as most people have seen less than half of the top 25 teams(my guess). Definitely a lot of bickering for the second poll of 2016...

Just don't say Edwards isn't as good as McCarthy, Palleschi, and Flannery. Don't even imply it!!

I wouldn't even say that. But I definitely don't think there were 20 players better than him last year in D3, but my point was more that he was returning from a team that was clearly good besides him. But whatever. If they can make it through the next few weeks in good shape it's all downhill from there.

[HOPEful]

I wouldn't even say that. But I definitely don't think there were 20 players better than him last year in D3, but my point was more that he was returning from a team that was clearly good besides him. But whatever. If they can make it through the next few weeks in good shape it's all downhill from there.

I was just poking the bear

[nescac1]

As a New England observer, Amherst is a worthy number one this year -- they look loaded and are firing on all cylinders to start the season.  Babson has despite being undefeated been up-and-down, a few players haven't been performing the way they did last year, but Flannery is so darn good and they have so much experience around him that I could see Babson ending the season in the top five.  Tufts has a lot of explosive scoring ability once again, but I'd be absolutely stunned to see them in the top five by late in the season.  They may not be the second-best team in NESCAC, let alone the country.  In all events, there will be some major changes coming soon -- Tufts plays WPI and probably Babson, Babson plays Amherst and probably Tufts, in the next few weeks.  So something has to give. 

Endicott plays a ridiculously weak schedule from here on out, so they could stick around and very slowly move up -- would not be surprised to see them finish with between one and three total losses.  I think Midd will bound back and quickly return to the poll, Keene is likely to fall a bit but seem legit based on their performance so far.  There are so many New England teams doing well that I understand why Williams isn't getting any votes yet, but watch out for the Ephs -- they are gradually starting to come together and the talent, if not the experience, is there.  If they win the next two games, including on the road against a likely-unbeaten Wesleyan squad, I hope they start to at least earn some attention.  In all events, they will have a chance to show their mettle (or show that a team with only one senior and two juniors playing in the rotation isn't quite there yet) when they face Hope and Amherst one week apart in late December / early January. 

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

There is no avoiding the controversy this early as most people have seen less than half of the top 25 teams(my guess). Definitely a lot of bickering for the second poll of 2016...

Just don't say Edwards isn't as good as McCarthy, Palleschi, and Flannery. Don't even imply it!!

I wouldn't even say that. But I definitely don't think there were 20 players better than him last year in D3, but my point was more that he was returning from a team that was clearly good besides him. But whatever. If they can make it through the next few weeks in good shape it's all downhill from there.

Of course, he's not competing against all 20 above him, just the 8-10 post players.  If you look at those names, it's tough to move him up - based on last year's results, playing alongside Grennert.  I imagine we'll get to see everything he's capable of this year.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

There is no avoiding the controversy this early as most people have seen less than half of the top 25 teams(my guess). Definitely a lot of bickering for the second poll of 2016...

Just don't say Edwards isn't as good as McCarthy, Palleschi, and Flannery. Don't even imply it!!

I wouldn't even say that. But I definitely don't think there were 20 players better than him last year in D3, but my point was more that he was returning from a team that was clearly good besides him. But whatever. If they can make it through the next few weeks in good shape it's all downhill from there.

Of course, he's not competing against all 20 above him, just the 8-10 post players.  If you look at those names, it's tough to move him up - based on last year's results, playing alongside Grennert.  I imagine we'll get to see everything he's capable of this year.

That shouldn't matter. People don't have a problem with putting 4 guards on there.

But I still don't buy this.

Bottom line is if you normalize Edwards to 35 mpg, we're not having this conversation because he would have been a first team A-A. He got penalized for Vander Wal's sub patterns (which isn't to say his sub patterns were wrong).

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

A little late, here is my Top 25 ballot for Week 1 (along with my pre-season ballot in there) along with my thoughts. Remember, I am sharing this because people find it interesting and you get my insight... but I am ONE voter. I don't have any more points or weight than anyone else even if my designation has changed (I used to be one of the three Mid-Atlantic voters, I have now taken over Pat's former role as the 25th voter - the national slot): http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2016/11/30/daves-top-25-ballot-16-17-week-1/

Per the comment about why Marietta was scheduled against Albright - I would love to see you try and put an eight-team classic together.

First off, we wanted to avoid any team playing two teams from the same conference. This year we were challenged with two teams from the MAC Commonwealth and two from the ODAC - it happened and nothing we could do about it.

Secondly, there are a ton of timing issues to work through. You don't want teams to have too tough a turn around, you don't want to give teams a much longer break than their opponent on the second day. There are games you want to feature in a more prime slot while also giving the host school (Stevenson) the timing they want to play since they want to shine for their own fans. You have to consider what travel plans may be before and after the event and you have to consider other details that can throw wrenches in the scheduling. For example, some schools have request not to play teams (while everyone has requests to play teams; the year we had Middlebury, FIVE teams wanted to play the Panthers).

There is plenty more I can go into and explain why there were five or six versions of the schedule along with countless hours twisting things around. It came down to this: Albright was going to face UWSP, Marietta, CNU, or Lynchburg - plain and simple. When we worked through all the schedules, Marietta was the only one we could slot in against Albright. Marietta was also the only team who got a nice benefit of a few extra hours turnaround to the next day, but since CNU wasn't playing less than 24 hours earlier, we stuck with this. But that was a sticking point for us for a long time. We eventually had to stick with this schedule because it was the best version we could produce.

But to your point about Albright hurting Marietta's SOS... I don't think you know what you are talking about. First off, Albright is currently 2-2 and has a pretty good out-of-conference schedule that will actually help Marietta's SOS. Secondly, the MAC Commonwealth is not a bad conference and usually produced very good SOS numbers in the past ten years. Thirdly, Albright will absolutely play a factor in the Commonwealth race this season. There is nothing about that match-up that will hurt Marietta in the slightest. LaRoche and Bethany will actually hurt Marietta's SOS more than Albright's because LaRoche's (AMCC) and Bethany's (PAC) conferences are in the lower third, maybe quarter, of Division III which will pull the Pioneer's SOS down. Commonwealth is in the top half, possibly top third (can't remember where Gordon slotted them off the top of my head).

Don't worry about the game against Albright... it won't hurt Marietta a damn bit. (By the way, Albright's coach admitted his team was overwhelmed by Marietta psychologically in pre-game, but that is why teams come to the event - to improve and prepare for things out of their norm; they looked pretty darn good against RMC the next day.)

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

There is no avoiding the controversy this early as most people have seen less than half of the top 25 teams(my guess). Definitely a lot of bickering for the second poll of 2016...

Just don't say Edwards isn't as good as McCarthy, Palleschi, and Flannery. Don't even imply it!!

I wouldn't even say that. But I definitely don't think there were 20 players better than him last year in D3, but my point was more that he was returning from a team that was clearly good besides him. But whatever. If they can make it through the next few weeks in good shape it's all downhill from there.

Of course, he's not competing against all 20 above him, just the 8-10 post players.  If you look at those names, it's tough to move him up - based on last year's results, playing alongside Grennert.  I imagine we'll get to see everything he's capable of this year.

That shouldn't matter. People don't have a problem with putting 4 guards on there.

But I still don't buy this.

Bottom line is if you normalize Edwards to 35 mpg, we're not having this conversation because he would have been a first team A-A. He got penalized for Vander Wal's sub patterns (which isn't to say his sub patterns were wrong).

If we normalize Edwards to 35 mpg... because everyone should just change the math to make your argument work. SMH

Move on... you have an axe to grind and it has gotten old. No one has knocked Edwards, but you won't except it. Sure, some have put four guards on a lineup, but we try not to. We have also put three forwards on a team in the past. Happens a lot. NABC puts EIGHT players on a team. Can you put eight players on a court to play a game?

Even adding three forwards to a team wouldn't have moved Edwards up as far as you would have liked last year. He's good, yes. But those ahead of him last year were better in the opinion of a number of people. Who cares. It was last year. He was a first-team AA pre-season selection this year... apparently that doesn't matter to you. You come from a very jaded and blinded point of view which is perfectly fine... the difference is those who vote on All-Region and All-American... don't. There are probably between 6500-7000 players in Division III and you are squabbling over the fact he was selected, but not high enough, as one of the best 25 - the top 0.35-0.38% - in the country. Unreal.

[HOPEful]

A little late, here is my Top 25 ballot for Week 1 (along with my pre-season ballot in there) along with my thoughts. Remember, I am sharing this because people find it interesting and you get my insight... but I am ONE voter....

Love it and REALLY appreciate that you're willing to publicize and give rationale to your votes. Even when I may disagree, I respect the votes a lot more knowing the rationale I disagree with rather than just a number.

On just this ballot, I agree with your numbers and find it surprising that 19 voters have Amherst #1. Not that they aren't deserving, but I would certainly think Babson, Tufts and Marietta would deserve a more equal number of #1 votes. However, differentiating between #1 and #4 at this point in the season is a pretty pointless exercise.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Thank you HOPEful... I do appreciate your thoughts. I certainly do NOT expect everyone or even a majority of people to agree with me. However, I do think it makes for an interesting conversation. I also learn a lot from this. People chime in with their thoughts that sometimes I don't agree with at all and others help me make a more informed decision next time. Heck, I have coaches always contacting me behind the scenes to share their thoughts especially on teams that are their's! I think that just makes for a more informed fan-base.

[WUPHF]

A little late, here is my Top 25 ballot for Week 1 (along with my pre-season ballot in there) along with my thoughts. Remember, I am sharing this because people find it interesting and you get my insight...

I love the Top 25 Ballot blog...  Just a few thoughts...

You knew if I responded that I was going to say this: I cannot believe you left out Washington University.  In my mind, this will prove to be a Week 1 whiff before January begins...

I said this before, but I am still surprised that the pre-season poll had Emory way in and Rochester out.  The Yellowjackets were more balanced last season with Jared Seltzer, but I still think this guard-heavy squad is a post season team.

Emory has had a few seasons of retooling with a player going from First or Second team-level to arguably UAA Player of the Year-level every season in Will Trawick, Alex Foster and Jake Davis.  I watched parts of two games and they did not look like a Top 25 team, but I still have them as my No. 3 team in the UAA.  Time will tell if Emory or Chicago are Top 25 teams, but I am not counting the Eagles out just yet.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

A little late, here is my Top 25 ballot for Week 1 (along with my pre-season ballot in there) along with my thoughts. Remember, I am sharing this because people find it interesting and you get my insight...

I love the Top 25 Ballot blog...  Just a few thoughts...

You knew if I responded that I was going to say this: I cannot believe you left out Washington University.  In my mind, this will prove to be a Week 1 whiff before January begins...

I said this before, but I am still surprised that the pre-season poll had Emory way in and Rochester out.  The Yellowjackets were more balanced last season with Jared Seltzer, but I still think this guard-heavy squad is a post season team.

Emory has had a few seasons of retooling with a player going from First or Second team-level to arguably UAA Player of the Year-level every season in Will Trawick, Alex Foster and Jake Davis.  I watched parts of two games and they did not look like a Top 25 team, but I still have them as my No. 3 team in the UAA.  Time will tell if Emory or Chicago are Top 25 teams, but I am not counting the Eagles out just yet.

I debated long and hard about Wash U. I would have mentioned that, but when I used to mention other teams I was considering it only opened up the door to so many others who felt they were getting slighted even more because not only did I not vote for their team, I didn't mention them as one I was watching either (even if I couldn't mention them all). So, I stopped doing that - less work, too.

After seeing what Wash U had last year and not being impressed (by their standards) and not being blown away with what they had coming back... I didn't go with them in the preseason. I know they are off to a good start, but not ever undefeated team has made my ballot. I am waiting to see what the next week brings to be sure before I get more serious with them.

As for Rochester, you will notice I did include them in my Top 25 in the preseason. I thought about putting them higher, but resigned to putting them 25th at the end.

As for Emory, I thought they had better tools back and with the schedule looking the way it did, I expected them to be undefeated by now... I am a little surprised they are not.

[WUPHF]

As for Rochester, you will notice I did include them in my Top 25 in the preseason. I thought about putting them higher, but resigned to putting them 25th at the end.

I was not surprised to see that you had them in the preseason poll.

As for Emory, I thought they had better tools back and with the schedule looking the way it did, I expected them to be undefeated by now... I am a little surprised they are not.

Very true...and I definitely understand why you are leaving off the teams that you considered but did not ultimately include.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

A little late, here is my Top 25 ballot for Week 1 (along with my pre-season ballot in there) along with my thoughts. Remember, I am sharing this because people find it interesting and you get my insight...

I love the Top 25 Ballot blog...  Just a few thoughts...

You knew if I responded that I was going to say this: I cannot believe you left out Washington University.  In my mind, this will prove to be a Week 1 whiff before January begins...

I said this before, but I am still surprised that the pre-season poll had Emory way in and Rochester out.  The Yellowjackets were more balanced last season with Jared Seltzer, but I still think this guard-heavy squad is a post season team.

Emory has had a few seasons of retooling with a player going from First or Second team-level to arguably UAA Player of the Year-level every season in Will Trawick, Alex Foster and Jake Davis.  I watched parts of two games and they did not look like a Top 25 team, but I still have them as my No. 3 team in the UAA.  Time will tell if Emory or Chicago are Top 25 teams, but I am not counting the Eagles out just yet.

If it helps, I haven't voted for Emory yet, just added Rochester in week 1, and named WashU in both polls so far.