Top 25 talk

[augie77]

Number 18 North Park lost to Carroll on a buzzer-beating three pointer, 84-81.  With this loss, every CCIW team has a conference loss, assuring a 44th consecutive season in which the conference champ will have at least one loss.  Last time a team went undefeated in conference was Augustana in 1973.

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (Nearly Complete)

My schedule later this afternoon is a bit uncertain, and there are only three games today among teams on the list (York @ CNU and UW-Eau Claire @ Wartburg, both at 4pm, and George Fox @ UW-Whitewater at 8pm), so I will post the report now, and edit those scores in later if my schedule allows. (The GF/UWW game might not get added until tomorrow morning.)

In the interest of preserving my fragile karma score, I will refrain from highlighting any results that might deserve extra attention.

[edit] now only GF/UWW missing
[2nd edit] Apparently the GF/uWW game started at 7:00, not 8:00, because it's over already.

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	611	Amherst	8-0	def. Brandeis, 76-58; def. #2 Babson, 99-97; def. Lasell, 92-68
#2	603	Babson	9-1	LOST at #1 Amherst, 97-99
#3	572	Marietta	7-1	won at Otterbein, 79-54; LOST at John Carroll, 76-88
#4	529	Whitman	6-0	def. #7 Whitworth, 79-65; def. Covenant, 101-85
#5	507	Tufts	7-2	LOST to Mass-Boston, 74-76; won at Wentworth, 78-63
#6	479	Christopher Newport	6-1	def. York (Pa.), 85-59
#7	474	Whitworth	5-1	LOST at #4 Whitman, 65-79; def. Covenant, 93-62
#8	408	St. Norbert	5-1	def. Lawrence, 76-45; won at Cornell, 66-58
#9	392	North Central (Ill.)	5-2	LOST to Carthage, 75-85; won at Millikin, 73-67
#10	367	UW-Eau Claire	8-1	def. Viterbo, 68-59; won at Buena Vista, 63-60; LOST at #41 Wartburg, 90-103
#11	358	Rochester	9-0	def. SUNY Geneseo, 82-80
#12	340	Hope	5-2	LOST to UW-Stevens Point, 72-74
#13	313	Washington U.	6-2	def. Fontbonne, 103-64; LOST at Central, 80-84
#14	277	Benedictine	6-2	won at Milwaukee Engineering, 71-52; def. Edgewood, 77-59
#15	274	Salisbury	7-0	won at Southern Virginia, 88-64
#16	193	Illinois Wesleyan	6-2	LOST to #18 North Park, 68-72; won at Elmhurst, 88-57
#17	165	Wooster	5-3	LOST at Hiram, 68-72; def. DePauw, 82-65
#18	146	North Park	6-1	won at #16 Illinois Wesleyan, 72-68; LOST to T#45 Carroll, 81-84
#19	135	Keene State	6-2	LOST at Lasell, 79-97; def. Mass-Boston, 90-80
#20	124	Endicott	6-2	won at University of New England, 78-65; def. Salem State, 82-64; LOST to Bridgewater State, 82-86
#21	111	St. Thomas	5-3	LOST to Hamline, 61-74; def. St. John's, 82-69
#22	96	Swarthmore	7-0	won at Ursinus, 75-67
#23	89	Susquehanna	7-1	def. (n) Trinity (Conn.), 62-58; def. (n) Gwynedd Mercy, 80-74
#24	76	Baldwin Wallace	5-2	def. Heidelberg, 67-64; LOST at Muskingum, 95-98
#25	73	Denison	8-0	won at Oberlin, 72-69; won at Wittenberg, 72-68

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	58	UW-Whitewater	7-0	def. Rockford, 97-85; def. Kalamazoo, 80-64; def. George Fox, 98-63
#27	52	Augustana	7-2	def. Wheaton (Ill.), 73-71; def. Carthage, 86-70
#28	35	New Jersey City	8-1	won at Kean, 78-52; def. TCNJ, 54-52
#29	34	Skidmore	5-3	LOST at T#45 Plattsburgh State, 78-86; LOST at T#33 Middlebury, 71-72
#30	24	UW-River Falls	7-1	def. UW-Superior, 92-63
T#31	23	Emory	6-2	def. Rust, 93-72
T#31	23	Lycoming	7-1	won at Widener, 74-62
T#33	19	Middlebury	7-1	won at Southern Vermont, 86-72; def. #29 Skidmore, 72-71
T#33	19	Scranton	6-1	IDLE
T#33	19	Wesleyan (Conn.)	9-0	def. Vassar, 77-53; won at Westfield State, 90-52
#36	18	Chicago	6-1	IDLE
#37	17	Virginia Wesleyan	6-2	won at Averett, 104-76
#38	16	Neumann	8-0	won at Delaware Valley, 105-77; def. Catholic, 83-63
#39	13	Mount St. Joseph	7-1	won at Manchester, 76-68
#40	11	Brockport	8-1	LOST at Hobart, 52-65; won at SUNY Potsdam, 95-59; won at T#45 Plattsburgh State, 94-88
#41	7	Wartburg	8-1	won at Coe, 70-66; def. #10 UW-Eau Claire, 103-90
T#42	5	Lynchburg	5-3	LOST to (n) Case Western Reserve, 63-64; def. (n) St. Joseph's (Vt.), 105-61
T#42	5	Ramapo	8-0	won at Rutgers-Newark, 68-46; def. Kean, 96-62
#44	4	Guilford	5-2	LOST at Methodist, 65-70
T#45	3	Carroll	5-2	LOST to Elmhurst, 56-69; won at #18 North Park, 84-81
T#45	3	Claremont-Mudd-Scripps	6-0	won at Whittier, 73-68
T#45	3	Plattsburgh State	6-3	def. #29 Skidmore, 86-78; LOST to SUNY Geneseo, 71-86; LOST to #40 Brockport, 88-94
T#48	1	UW-La Crosse	5-3	LOST to Loras, 79-88
T#48	1	WPI	7-2	def. Massachusetts College, 105-68; won at Salem State, 87-62

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

Both Massey and D3 efficiency ratings have Marietta dropping just a couple of spots, with Whitman moving ahead of them.

Wherever scores get reported doesn't seem to have gotten the message on North Park and Hope's losses yet.

So MC really should be #2, but they obviously won't be. This is the problem with being underrated in the first place. MC will probably drop now out of overreaction (John Carroll is actually really good, they just played good teams early and had some 50/50 type results), and because the voters were looking for a reason not to believe in them in the first place.

[monsoon]

How They Fared (Nearly Complete)

My schedule later this afternoon is a bit uncertain, and there are only three games today among teams on the list (York @ CNU and UW-Eau Claire @ Wartburg, both at 4pm, and George Fox @ UW-Whitewater at 8pm), so I will post the report now, and edit those scores in later if my schedule allows. (The GF/UWW game might not get added until tomorrow morning.)

In the interest of preserving my fragile karma score, I will refrain from highlighting any results that might deserve extra attention.

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	611	Amherst	8-0	def. Brandeis, 76-58; def. #2 Babson, 99-97; def. Lasell, 92-68
#2	603	Babson	9-1	LOST at #1 Amherst, 97-99
#3	572	Marietta	7-1	won at Otterbein, 79-54; LOST at John Carroll, 76-88
#4	529	Whitman	6-0	def. #7 Whitworth, 79-65; def. Covenant, 101-85
#5	507	Tufts	7-2	LOST to Mass-Boston, 74-76; won at Wentworth, 78-63
#6	479	Christopher Newport	5-1	12/11 vs. York (Pa.)
#7	474	Whitworth	5-1	LOST at #4 Whitman, 65-79; def. Covenant, 93-62
#8	408	St. Norbert	5-1	def. Lawrence, 76-45; won at Cornell, 66-58
#9	392	North Central (Ill.)	5-2	LOST to Carthage, 75-85; won at Millikin, 73-67
#10	367	UW-Eau Claire	8-0	def. Viterbo, 68-59; won at Buena Vista, 63-60; 12/11 at #41 Wartburg
#11	358	Rochester	9-0	def. SUNY Geneseo, 82-80
#12	340	Hope	5-2	LOST to UW-Stevens Point, 72-74
#13	313	Washington U.	6-2	def. Fontbonne, 103-64; LOST at Central, 80-84
#14	277	Benedictine	6-2	won at Milwaukee Engineering, 71-52; def. Edgewood, 77-59
#15	274	Salisbury	7-0	won at Southern Virginia, 88-64
#16	193	Illinois Wesleyan	6-2	LOST to #18 North Park, 68-72; won at Elmhurst, 88-57
#17	165	Wooster	5-3	LOST at Hiram, 68-72; def. DePauw, 82-65
#18	146	North Park	6-1	won at #16 Illinois Wesleyan, 72-68; LOST to T#45 Carroll, 81-84
#19	135	Keene State	6-2	LOST at Lasell, 79-97; def. Mass-Boston, 90-80
#20	124	Endicott	6-2	won at University of New England, 78-65; def. Salem State, 82-64; LOST to Bridgewater State, 82-86
#21	111	St. Thomas	5-3	LOST to Hamline, 61-74; def. St. John's, 82-69
#22	96	Swarthmore	7-0	won at Ursinus, 75-67
#23	89	Susquehanna	7-1	def. (n) Trinity (Conn.), 62-58; def. (n) Gwynedd Mercy, 80-74
#24	76	Baldwin Wallace	5-2	def. Heidelberg, 67-64; LOST at Muskingum, 95-98
#25	73	Denison	8-0	won at Oberlin, 72-69; won at Wittenberg, 72-68

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	58	UW-Whitewater	6-0	def. Rockford, 97-85; def. Kalamazoo, 80-64; 12/11 vs. George Fox
#27	52	Augustana	7-2	def. Wheaton (Ill.), 73-71; def. Carthage, 86-70
#28	35	New Jersey City	8-1	won at Kean, 78-52; def. TCNJ, 54-52
#29	34	Skidmore	5-3	LOST at T#45 Plattsburgh State, 78-86; LOST at T#33 Middlebury, 71-72
#30	24	UW-River Falls	7-1	def. UW-Superior, 92-63
T#31	23	Emory	6-2	def. Rust, 93-72
T#31	23	Lycoming	7-1	won at Widener, 74-62
T#33	19	Middlebury	7-1	won at Southern Vermont, 86-72; def. #29 Skidmore, 72-71
T#33	19	Scranton	6-1	IDLE
T#33	19	Wesleyan (Conn.)	9-0	def. Vassar, 77-53; won at Westfield State, 90-52
#36	18	Chicago	6-1	IDLE
#37	17	Virginia Wesleyan	6-2	won at Averett, 104-76
#38	16	Neumann	8-0	won at Delaware Valley, 105-77; def. Catholic, 83-63
#39	13	Mount St. Joseph	7-1	won at Manchester, 76-68
#40	11	Brockport	8-1	LOST at Hobart, 52-65; won at SUNY Potsdam, 95-59; won at T#45 Plattsburgh State, 94-88
#41	7	Wartburg	7-1	won at Coe, 70-66; 12/11 vs. #10 UW-Eau Claire
T#42	5	Lynchburg	5-3	LOST to (n) Case Western Reserve, 63-64; def. (n) St. Joseph's (Vt.), 105-61
T#42	5	Ramapo	8-0	won at Rutgers-Newark, 68-46; def. Kean, 96-62
#44	4	Guilford	5-2	LOST at Methodist, 65-70
T#45	3	Carroll	5-2	LOST to Elmhurst, 56-69; won at #18 North Park, 84-81
T#45	3	Claremont-Mudd-Scripps	6-0	won at Whittier, 73-68
T#45	3	Plattsburgh State	6-3	def. #29 Skidmore, 86-78; LOST to SUNY Geneseo, 71-86; LOST to #40 Brockport, 88-94
T#48	1	UW-La Crosse	5-3	LOST to Loras, 79-88
T#48	1	WPI	7-2	def. Massachusetts College, 105-68; won at Salem State, 87-62

There's an awful lot of red in that report this week.

[mailsy]

I'm curious how much closer Neumann will get to the top 25 this week.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

I'm curious how much closer Neumann will get to the top 25 this week.

Massey has them #9 now. Efficiency rankings have them pretty high as well. But this is d3, don't take too kindly to them there newfangled machines here!

Another team the pollsters are asleep on. Very weird that they aren't ranked and Denison is. Just more proof of the poll love-in that is Wooster, not just in basketball either.

Unfortunately Neumann has a long layoff now. Hopefully they don't lose ground during the break.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I'm curious how much closer Neumann will get to the top 25 this week.

I've watched two of their games.  Supremely talented team; I'm not seeing much discipline, which is difficult.  I haven't really looked at my ballot yet.  Lots of losses, so I'm not saying I won't vote for them, but I doubt that I will just yet.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

The challenge with Neumann is their conference is hard to read. In the past, Cabrini has been an incredibly talented team that left the conference in the dust. GMC in the past has shown signs of getting big wins on occasion, but not being on the same level as those past Cabrini team. So, seeing Neumann win doesn't mean much against a conference which the bottom half is usually pretty poor. Neumann has also played an interesting schedule against some interesting, but nothing major teams. Win over Catholic last year means more than this year. Win over GMC the same as Catholic. I like the wins over Rowan and Eastern, but they aren't significant wins. It just hard to read into it.

[ronk]

I'm curious how much closer Neumann will get to the top 25 this week.

I've watched two of their games.  Supremely talented team; I'm not seeing much discipline, which is difficult.  I haven't really looked at my ballot yet.  Lots of losses, so I'm not saying I won't vote for them, but I doubt that I will just yet.

  The test will be handling Scranton @ home on the 30th.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I'm curious how much closer Neumann will get to the top 25 this week.

I've watched two of their games.  Supremely talented team; I'm not seeing much discipline, which is difficult.  I haven't really looked at my ballot yet.  Lots of losses, so I'm not saying I won't vote for them, but I doubt that I will just yet.

  The test will be handling Scranton @ home on the 30th.

There are an unbelievable number of teams that have tough opponents waiting for them between now and New Year's Day.  A lot of teams I'd prefer to wait on.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

The challenge with Neumann is their conference is hard to read.

Amherst SOS: 206. Neumann SOS: 135.

Total cop out.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

You call it a cop out, but I also don't care much for Massey's numbers at this point in the season. As many have talked about, their numbers aren't that solid until late January (in my opinion). Again, you can call it a cop out, but your opinion on how I vote affects me about as much as Trump's opinion on the same topic.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

I'm curious how much closer Neumann will get to the top 25 this week.

I've watched two of their games.  Supremely talented team; I'm not seeing much discipline, which is difficult.  I haven't really looked at my ballot yet.  Lots of losses, so I'm not saying I won't vote for them, but I doubt that I will just yet.

  The test will be handling Scranton @ home on the 30th.

There are an unbelievable number of teams that have tough opponents waiting for them between now and New Year's Day.  A lot of teams I'd prefer to wait on.

By wait do you mean not give them credit for what they've already done just because you didn't expect them to do it?

[sac]

Neumann must get a ton of layups, shoot 53% as a team but only 35% from 3.   139 assists on 281 baskets.  Opponents have 157 turnovers.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

You call it a cop out, but I also don't care much for Massey's numbers at this point in the season. As many have talked about, their numbers aren't that solid until late January (in my opinion). Again, you can call it a cop out, but your opinion on how I vote affects me about as much as Trump's opinion on the same topic.

Of course you don't care for them; they disagree with you and reveal your bias.

Just because many talk about it doesn't mean it's right. It's almost certainly not right that you need that many games worth of data. Considering computers are better than humans at this kind of thing, it's odd that you and others trust yourselves over them. Guess just the world we live in -- resist or don't though, the age is coming when it will be accepted that there are just some things humans aren't very good at and can benefit from help doing. This is really child's play for a computer.

Be careful, I got accused of destroying the virginity of the board in so many words for referencing Trump. But then we all know the rules are different for me. And you. I guess 500 viewers buys you a lot of goodwill.