Top 25 talk

[Ryan Stoppable]

UW-Oshkosh 58
#7-St. Norbert 45

Not that St. Norbert isn't a good team, but their lofty ranking is often boosted by the fact that they play in a really bad conference. If they can post a good non conference record, they are usually going to be highly ranked the rest of the year because their conference presents them with virtually no competition. The second best team in their conference the last few years, Carroll, transfered to the CCIW this year so now it's even easier for St. Norbert to slice through the rest of the Midwest Conference. St.N also benefits from being close enough to be able to recruit Catholic kids from the entire Chicagoland area, a major producer of college talent as well, of course, as recruiting close by Green Bay, and the entire state of Wisconsin, especially the Catholic population thereof. St. Norb's 2 losses have come when they have played schools from a strong conference. This year, that's the WIAC which has given St. Norbert it's two losses.

Another team that enjoys the same advantage is Benedictine. A team with 3 very good players to be sure, but another team that is continually propped up by playing in a terrible conference. The Northern Athletics Collegiate Conference is probably even worse overall than St. Norbert's Midwest Conference.
And, again, With BU being located in the western suburbs, they are right in the middle of the metropolitan Chicagoland area. One of the entire Chicagoland's top producers of talent, which also happens to be a private Catholic (BU is a Catholic institution) HS, is Benet Academy which is located directly across the street from Benedictine.

You'd think that's already baked into the pollsters calculus though? This has been a truth for years.

Benedictine wasn't ranked last year until they started beating CCIW teams in non-confidence, never got to #1 despite being undefeated and the wins over highly-ranked CCIW opposition, and proved themselves worthy of the hype in the NCAA Tournament. This year, they have three losses, but all razor thin and two to ranked opponents.

Are you suggesting they should be penalized for playing in what is admittedly not a very good conference and beating the teams that are on their conference schedule?

(And before that, they hadn't made the Tourney since 2011 - where is this "propping up" coming in as far as BU is concerned?)

[AO]

Yeah, I think WIAC, CCIW and NESCAC are a clear top three in some order.

And, I think most folks would also put UAA, OAC, and ODAC as the next three, in some order.

MIAC I'd say is part of a pretty big bunch of strong conferences positioned underneath those six (NWC, NJAC, NEWMAC, MIAA, SUNYAC, Centennial, I'm sure there are a few others in the mix that I'm not thinking of).  But there is no way to put it in the top six, as good as St. Thomas is as an individual program.

The ODAC has gone 43-45 in the non-conference thus far and didn't have a team in the sweet sixteen last year.  I'm with Gordon here.

[nescac1]

One year is too small a sample size.  ODAC (like WIAC last year) may be having a relatively down year so far, but  Virginia Wesleyan is like St. Thomas one of the truly elite D3 programs year after year, and ODAC has more depth than the MIAC, with programs like Hampden Sydney, Guilford and Randolph Macon all being nationally prominent over the past 10-15 years and making deep tourney runs.   OAC is also always very, very deep and strong across the board. 

[AO]

One year is too small a sample size.  ODAC (like WIAC last year) may be having a relatively down year so far, but  Virginia Wesleyan is like St. Thomas one of the truly elite D3 programs year after year, and ODAC has more depth than the MIAC, with programs like Hampden Sydney, Guilford and Randolph Macon all being nationally prominent over the past 10-15 years and making deep tourney runs.   OAC is also always very, very deep and strong across the board.

I'm talking about current conference rankings as it relates to the current top 25.

[nescac1]

Ahh, gotcha AO, that would be a closer call then.  MIAC hasn't exactly been lighting it up so far this year in out of conference play either, though, at least relative to the top conferences. 

[AndOne]

UW-Oshkosh 58
#7-St. Norbert 45

Not that St. Norbert isn't a good team, but their lofty ranking is often boosted by the fact that they play in a really bad conference. If they can post a good non conference record, they are usually going to be highly ranked the rest of the year because their conference presents them with virtually no competition. The second best team in their conference the last few years, Carroll, transfered to the CCIW this year so now it's even easier for St. Norbert to slice through the rest of the Midwest Conference. St.N also benefits from being close enough to be able to recruit Catholic kids from the entire Chicagoland area, a major producer of college talent as well, of course, as recruiting close by Green Bay, and the entire state of Wisconsin, especially the Catholic population thereof. St. Norb's 2 losses have come when they have played schools from a strong conference. This year, that's the WIAC which has given St. Norbert it's two losses.

Another team that enjoys the same advantage is Benedictine. A team with 3 very good players to be sure, but another team that is continually propped up by playing in a terrible conference. The Northern Athletics Collegiate Conference is probably even worse overall than St. Norbert's Midwest Conference.
And, again, With BU being located in the western suburbs, they are right in the middle of the metropolitan Chicagoland area. One of the entire Chicagoland's top producers of talent, which also happens to be a private Catholic (BU is a Catholic institution) HS, is Benet Academy which is located directly across the street from Benedictine.

You'd think that's already baked into the pollsters calculus though? This has been a truth for years.

Benedictine wasn't ranked last year until they started beating CCIW teams in non-confidence, never got to #1 despite being undefeated and the wins over highly-ranked CCIW opposition, and proved themselves worthy of the hype in the NCAA Tournament. This year, they have three losses, but all razor thin and two to ranked opponents.

Are you suggesting they should be penalized for playing in what is admittedly not a very good conference and beating the teams that are on their conference schedule?

(And before that, they hadn't made the Tourney since 2011 - where is this "propping up" coming in as far as BU is concerned?)

You bet I think they should be "penalized" for playing in a weak conference. That is not to say they are not a good team (exceptional last year), but there is no way you can deny their ranking is "propped up" by getting to play all those games against weak conference teams. But look what happens when they play a good team from another conference. They lose. Not by much, but they still lose. What do you think their record would be if they had to play in the WIAC, CCIW, or NESCAC all year instead of the very weak conference in which they do get to play which presents virtually no competition? Nowhere near as good as it will end up this year because of all the easy conference wins. There is no way BU is a better team than North Park, Whitewater, or Illinois Wesleyan. They may be better than NCC right now but that's only because NCC is without Connor Raridon currently. With Raridon, NCC has already beaten BU. But yet, BU is currently ranked above all those teams. JMHO.

[Ryan Stoppable]

UW-Oshkosh 58
#7-St. Norbert 45

Not that St. Norbert isn't a good team, but their lofty ranking is often boosted by the fact that they play in a really bad conference. If they can post a good non conference record, they are usually going to be highly ranked the rest of the year because their conference presents them with virtually no competition. The second best team in their conference the last few years, Carroll, transfered to the CCIW this year so now it's even easier for St. Norbert to slice through the rest of the Midwest Conference. St.N also benefits from being close enough to be able to recruit Catholic kids from the entire Chicagoland area, a major producer of college talent as well, of course, as recruiting close by Green Bay, and the entire state of Wisconsin, especially the Catholic population thereof. St. Norb's 2 losses have come when they have played schools from a strong conference. This year, that's the WIAC which has given St. Norbert it's two losses.

Another team that enjoys the same advantage is Benedictine. A team with 3 very good players to be sure, but another team that is continually propped up by playing in a terrible conference. The Northern Athletics Collegiate Conference is probably even worse overall than St. Norbert's Midwest Conference.
And, again, With BU being located in the western suburbs, they are right in the middle of the metropolitan Chicagoland area. One of the entire Chicagoland's top producers of talent, which also happens to be a private Catholic (BU is a Catholic institution) HS, is Benet Academy which is located directly across the street from Benedictine.

You'd think that's already baked into the pollsters calculus though? This has been a truth for years.

Benedictine wasn't ranked last year until they started beating CCIW teams in non-confidence, never got to #1 despite being undefeated and the wins over highly-ranked CCIW opposition, and proved themselves worthy of the hype in the NCAA Tournament. This year, they have three losses, but all razor thin and two to ranked opponents.

Are you suggesting they should be penalized for playing in what is admittedly not a very good conference and beating the teams that are on their conference schedule?

(And before that, they hadn't made the Tourney since 2011 - where is this "propping up" coming in as far as BU is concerned?)

You bet I think they should be "penalized" for playing in a weak conference. That is not to say they are not a good team (exceptional last year), but there is no way you can deny their ranking is "propped up" by getting to play all those games against weak conference teams. But look what happens when they play a good team from another conference. They lose. Not by much, but they still lose. What do you think their record would be if they had to play in the WIAC, CCIW, or NESCAC all year instead of the very weak conference in which they do get to play which presents virtually no competition? Nowhere near as good as it will end up this year because of all the easy conference wins. There is no way BU is a better team than North Park, Whitewater, or Illinois Wesleyan. They may be better than NCC right now but that's only because NCC is without Connor Raridon currently. With Raridon, NCC has already beaten BU. But yet, BU is currently ranked above all those teams. JMHO.

I would instead argue that if Benedictine is in fact over-ranked (and they will drop after taking a 3rd loss last night) it is because they are the defending national runners up, not because of beating up the NACC.

Last year, they would have done just fine I'm either the WIAC (which was down a lot) or the CCIW (which they went 5-0 against, playing all the top teams except Augustana which would have been a hell of a game). This year, maybe not so much, but couldn't you level the same charge at a lot of the current Top 25?

[smedindy]

Today's results look like some argument will now be put paid to.

[augie77]

Just as Marietta was probably over-rated, it seems undefeated Wesleyan may be under-rated.

[PeterEscobar]

Today's results look like some argument will now be put paid to.

[sac]

Today's results look like some argument will now be put paid to.

if only

[AndOne]

Ryan Stoppable,

Apples and oranges I'm afraid. This year's team is still pretty good, with 3 returning starters who could play about anywhere, but they are missing the guy who was somehow named D3 POY, plus last year's point guard, and 6th man so, no, its not the same team.

You're right when you say last year's BU team could have competed well in any conference, because they Had 6 very good players. This year they have only 3 such players. But, that's still enough to pretty much dominate their weak conference. So, the primary reason for being over rated remains that they get to play the vast majority of their games against a weak conference. It's not that they aren't as good as they were last year. Two different years, two different teams.

As far as being able to level the same charge at a lot of the Top 25, I honestly don't know. Unfortunately, I don't know all the teams, and all the conferences all over the country. I only know what's in my back yard, and within a few blocks, which BU almost literally is. 

[Gregory Sager]

Minnesota has 7 pretty good teams, but their schedules are a little tougher across the board, partly due to access to the Wisconsin teams for non-cons.

The MIAC has traditionally been overrated, and it still is as a whole. But St. Thomas, over the past decade, has been one of the best programs in the entire division, and the Tommies have the hardware to prove it. Just don't let that fool you into thinking that the Tommies are reflective of the whole league.

What league or leagues should be rated higher than the MIAC and who is doing the ratings?  I guess you could say since they only play 5 non-conference games you have less confidence in their ranking, but that should tend to make them look worse than they are as often as it makes them look better.  The lack of post-season success for MIAC teams not named St. Thomas can also be partly blamed on this 20 game conference schedule which brings everyone's SOS down to .500 and makes it tougher to get at-large bids.  Bethel has to be one of the best teams in the d3hoops.com era to have never made it to the tourney.  The Royals have 3 Massey top 25 finishes in the last 8 years.

I must've passed through the looking glass and into Bizarro World, because I'm reading a post that actually appears to be UMAC stalwart AO defending a league whose posters have harangued him for years.

Seriously, though, your points about MIAC teams being victimized in the selection process by small sample size with regard to non-con play has some validity to it. The fact of the matter is, though, that the MIAC has been a member league of D3 since the division's inception back in 1974-75, and in all that time there's only been three other instances apart from UST's recent run in which a MIAC team has reached the Final Four (Hamline in '77, St. Thomas in '94, and Gustavus Adolphus in '03). That can't be blamed upon lack of Pool C access, because Pool C's only been around since 2000. Furthermore, in the early years of the D3 tourney the West Region was D3's weak sister (the WIAC was still an NAIA circuit at that point), which took some of the luster out of Hamline's achievement, and in '94 UST dodged the usual WIAC guillotine in the tourney by being moved to the South Region's sectional, where the Tommies were able to advance to the Final Four by beating Hampden-Sydney and Greensboro; that was an era in which the ODAC wasn't nearly as formidable as it became a few years later.

Also, while I agree with you that Bethel is one of the best programs in D3 not to have made it to the tourney over the past two decades, let's be honest here about what that really means. It's like being the shiniest toy in the Goodwill bin.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

Also, while I agree with you that Bethel is one of the best programs in D3 not to have made it to the tourney over the past two decades, let's be honest here about what that really means. It's like being the shiniest toy in the Goodwill bin.

If I said this about a D3 school, people would jump so far down my throat they'd have to come out the other end.

[Greek Tragedy]

Also, while I agree with you that Bethel is one of the best programs in D3 not to have made it to the tourney over the past two decades, let's be honest here about what that really means. It's like being the shiniest toy in the Goodwill bin.

If I said this about a D3 school, people would jump so far down my throat they'd have to come out the other end.

I actually find good value at Goodwill and don't feel ashamed at all being seen there. And, considering what Goodwill does for the community, the analogy is a little harsh.