Top 25 talk

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

Also, while I agree with you that Bethel is one of the best programs in D3 not to have made it to the tourney over the past two decades, let's be honest here about what that really means. It's like being the shiniest toy in the Goodwill bin.

If I said this about a D3 school, people would jump so far down my throat they'd have to come out the other end.

I actually find good value at Goodwill and don't feel ashamed at all being seen there. And, considering what Goodwill does for the community, the analogy is a little harsh.

Not sure if you're addressing me or him. I don't disagree with you, though there are lots of orgs that do the same thing with lower overhead.

I'm not the one that made the analogy. I just said how people's reaction would change if it was me that said it.

[AO]

Minnesota has 7 pretty good teams, but their schedules are a little tougher across the board, partly due to access to the Wisconsin teams for non-cons.

The MIAC has traditionally been overrated, and it still is as a whole. But St. Thomas, over the past decade, has been one of the best programs in the entire division, and the Tommies have the hardware to prove it. Just don't let that fool you into thinking that the Tommies are reflective of the whole league.

What league or leagues should be rated higher than the MIAC and who is doing the ratings?  I guess you could say since they only play 5 non-conference games you have less confidence in their ranking, but that should tend to make them look worse than they are as often as it makes them look better.  The lack of post-season success for MIAC teams not named St. Thomas can also be partly blamed on this 20 game conference schedule which brings everyone's SOS down to .500 and makes it tougher to get at-large bids.  Bethel has to be one of the best teams in the d3hoops.com era to have never made it to the tourney.  The Royals have 3 Massey top 25 finishes in the last 8 years.

I must've passed through the looking glass and into Bizarro World, because I'm reading a post that actually appears to be UMAC stalwart AO defending a league whose posters have harangued him for years.

Seriously, though, your points about MIAC teams being victimized in the selection process by small sample size with regard to non-con play has some validity to it. The fact of the matter is, though, that the MIAC has been a member league of D3 since the division's inception back in 1974-75, and in all that time there's only been three other instances apart from UST's recent run in which a MIAC team has reached the Final Four (Hamline in '77, St. Thomas in '94, and Gustavus Adolphus in '03). That can't be blamed upon lack of Pool C access, because Pool C's only been around since 2000. Furthermore, in the early years of the D3 tourney the West Region was D3's weak sister (the WIAC was still an NAIA circuit at that point), which took some of the luster out of Hamline's achievement, and in '94 UST dodged the usual WIAC guillotine in the tourney by being moved to the South Region's sectional, where the Tommies were able to advance to the Final Four by beating Hampden-Sydney and Greensboro; that was an era in which the ODAC wasn't nearly as formidable as it became a few years later.

Also, while I agree with you that Bethel is one of the best programs in D3 not to have made it to the tourney over the past two decades, let's be honest here about what that really means. It's like being the shiniest toy in the Goodwill bin.

If we're just going to talk about historical conference rankings and throw out the best team's recent run, then the UAA has only had 5 final four appearances by Rochester/NYU, the OAC has only 5 final fours by Ohio Northern/Otterbein, and the ODAC has only 2 final fours by Guilford and Randolph-Macon. 

[nescac1]

For ODAC, (I assume you are excluding VWU), Hampden Sydney has had two final fours including a national title appearance, and an elite 8 run. 

[AO]

For ODAC, (I assume you are excluding VWU), Hampden Sydney has had two final fours including a national title appearance, and an elite 8 run.

Good catch, I was just going by the conference guidebooks.

[sac]

If we're just going to talk about historical conference rankings and throw out the best team's recent run, then the UAA has only had 5 final four appearances by Rochester/NYU, the OAC has only 5 final fours by Ohio Northern/Otterbein, and the ODAC has only 2 final fours by Guilford and Randolph-Macon.

A good bit of NCAA trivia to keep in mind when discussing the OAC is that since John Carroll's Final Four run  in 2004 the OAC has had exactly one team advance beyond the round of 16.  Marietta in 2015 who lost in their Sectional Final.

Many reasons for this, not the least of which being plopped in a pretty tough Great Lakes Region but also the conferences parity working against itself and the OAC not always sending its regular season conference champion to the tournament.

I'm not sure I'd always call the OAC strong, but its almost always a balanced, parity driven league.  At least that's my perspective.

[gordonmann]

For ODAC, (I assume you are excluding VWU), Hampden Sydney has had two final fours including a national title appearance, and an elite 8 run.
Good catch, I was just going by the conference guidebooks.

Hm. Someone should fix that.

[Gregory Sager]

Also, while I agree with you that Bethel is one of the best programs in D3 not to have made it to the tourney over the past two decades, let's be honest here about what that really means. It's like being the shiniest toy in the Goodwill bin.

If I said this about a D3 school, people would jump so far down my throat they'd have to come out the other end.

I actually find good value at Goodwill and don't feel ashamed at all being seen there. And, considering what Goodwill does for the community, the analogy is a little harsh.

The people who work at Goodwill fix the toys that are donated. The toys in the bin are "before" toys, not "after" toys. Big difference.

If we're just going to talk about historical conference rankings and throw out the best team's recent run, then the UAA has only had 5 final four appearances by Rochester/NYU, the OAC has only 5 final fours by Ohio Northern/Otterbein, and the ODAC has only 2 final fours by Guilford and Randolph-Macon. 

Yes, but the UAA has only been in existence since 1987-88. Again, big difference. Also, you're forgetting that Wittenberg made several Final Four visits when it was an OAC member in the '70s and '80s, and John Carroll got to the season's final weekend back in '04. And, as I said, the ODAC didn't really take a step forward as a conference in terms of strength until the late '90s (although you left out that Roanoke made a Final Four appearance prior to that).

If we're just going to talk about historical conference rankings and throw out the best team's recent run, then the UAA has only had 5 final four appearances by Rochester/NYU, the OAC has only 5 final fours by Ohio Northern/Otterbein, and the ODAC has only 2 final fours by Guilford and Randolph-Macon.

A good bit of NCAA trivia to keep in mind when discussing the OAC is that since John Carroll's Final Four run  in 2004 the OAC has had exactly one team advance beyond the round of 16.  Marietta in 2015 who lost in their Sectional Final.

Many reasons for this, not the least of which being plopped in a pretty tough Great Lakes Region but also the conferences parity working against itself and the OAC not always sending its regular season conference champion to the tournament.

I'm not sure I'd always call the OAC strong, but its almost always a balanced, parity driven league.  At least that's my perspective.

That's exactly why I do call it strong: It combines historical post-season success with top-to-bottom balance.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

Refs ruined a good game in Daytona. 71-70, they just let a guy get mugged bringing the ball up against the press for the winning basket.

Whitman's good but that was complete trash. Guess that's why they're D3 refs in Florida where there are no D3 teams.

Laugh all you want but if you watched the game you know it was total BS and these refs were junk.

I'd like to see just one game where a team doesn't get away with WWE-style defense against the post.

Maybe doing all this travel right after finals left a tired team that was made moreso by having to make up for an injury. Would still rather play good teams and risk losing than play oil cans and have an inflated ranking then get punked in the tournament.

[(509)Rat]

Well worth the energy/mouse clicks it took to get here...

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

This is about the crowd I would expect to post Trump gifs.

[smedindy]

I don't think someone knows many of us well.

[smedindy]

Oh, and we used to deal with a poster on the NCAC board who always complained about the refs if Wooster got so much of a scratch against them. He REALLY hated John Carroll.

They also thought any hard contact was one of these. Sounds similar to the above rant.




BTW, those refs work a D-2 league in Florida and probably other NAIA and D-2 leagues in the area.

[sac]

Whitman and Marietta combined to go 12-25 from the FT line, 6-12 and 6-13. 

[(509)Rat]

This is about the crowd I would expect to post Trump gifs.

[deleted line]

Whitman and Marietta appeared to be evenly matched teams both from a personnel and scheme/style standpoint. This game was exactly what I expected. This was a great result for the NWC and a really bad result for the guy who thinks Marietta should be #1.

Carry on

[augie77]

So Marietta has lost three out of four (thank goodness for Wilma!).  Where will they be ranked in the next poll?