Top 25 talk

[nescac1]

Amen Titan Q, I do think this is a year without juggernauts.  Whitewater (who I admittedly haven't seen) MIGHT emerge as a team on a whole different level just because of all the transfer and frosh talent they have added to a core of some other solid players.  On paper (both statistically and looking at roster talent) they appear scary.  But that is speculative right now.  I have not seen Whitman either.  Babson and Amherst are definitely the best I've seen, but both have flaws -- for Babson it's a thin bench, for Amherst it's the opposite issue, the lack of a consistent superstar performer -- and plenty of teams could beat either on any given day, including from NESCAC alone, Wesleyan, Midd, Williams and maybe Tufts if Palleschi returns to form.  There is very likely to be at least one, maybe two, teams in the Final Four this year who are big surprises. 

[Titan Q]

Whitewater (who I admittedly haven't seen) MIGHT emerge as a team on a whole different level just because of all the transfer and frosh talent they have added to a core of some other solid players.  On paper (both statistically and looking at roster talent) they appear scary.  But that is speculative right now. 

Yes, UW-Whitewater is extremely talented.  They have 4 key transfers:

* Chris Jones, 6-0 Jr. G, 21.7 ppg, 2.5 rpg, 3.7 apg, .529 3-point (Wabash Valley JC, Iowa Lakes JC)
* Scotty Tyler, 6-8 Jr. F, 16.3 ppg, 7.1 rpg (D1 Idaho State, D1 UW-Milwaukee)
* Derek Rongstad, 6-5 So. G/F, 8.5 ppg (D1 UW-Milwaukee)
* Demetrius Woodley, 6-4 Jr. G/F, 7.2 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2.1 apg (Mid Plains JC,  Iowa Lakes JC)

In terms of pure talent, the Warhawks are probably at a different level than the other top teams...just a matter of seeing if all those new parts mesh with the returning parts over the course of a full season.

UW-Whitewater operates with a much different personnel model than most Division III schools.

[Pat Coleman]

Other people may have made that argument, but not me. I've seen plenty of Babson online over the past two seasons, so I knew when I walked into Ratner this afternoon that I would see a team that would give the Maroons all that they could handle. And that was certainly the case.

Wish they'd handed you a mic! Missed having PBP on that game.

[Gregory Sager]

I was speaking generally about the collective impressive showing for some of New England's best against a slew of strong Midwest teams: Chicago, Mount Union, Hope, IWU, Marietta.  You want to talk comparative scores?  Babson beat Endicott, who is a very good team you've unfairly derided as a tomato can, by double digits.  Endicott beat Midd, who beat IWU.  Babson has played a VERY tough schedule -- Amherst, Bowdoin, Bates, Tufts, Endicott, Chicago.  I'll put those six games against nearly any group of six out of conference opponents in the country.  Not a tomato can among them.  How many of those teams have you ever seen play, by the way??  If you've never even watched them once you aren't really qualified to deride the level of play. Just because you don't follow New England teams closely doesn't mean those teams aren't talented. 

Since you swear by Massey, New England is now kicking butt in the Massey top 12 too, and trust me, Amherst is way underrated right now.

I never derided Whitewater and I wouldn't.  But how many times do Northeast teams need to beat top 25 Midwest teams for you to change your totally uninformed, inflexible opinion?

If this is directed at me rather than at Spence, then I plead guilty on underrating Endicott sight unseen. But, aside from Endicott, what you've said doesn't really conflict with anything that I've said about the Northeast Region. I've always maintained that the NESCAC is right there with any other region's upper crust, and over the past few years I've added the top teams of the NEWMAC to that category. (I was very impressed by the MIT teams from a half-decade ago or so, for example.) In fact, I'm pretty sure that I said all that in this room the other day. It's the sheer density of the Northeast in terms of its number of teams that drags the region's overall level down, because there seems to be about two lower-tier leagues in the Northeast for every one lower-tier league found in another region -- and that sheer density is the key reason why it's easier for Northeast Region powers to schedule strategically with Pool C and tourney hosting privileges in mind.

As for the rest of it, my thinking is pretty much in line with Bob's in terms of the national picture, including his assertion that the gap between the first tier and the second tier isn't huge enough to guarantee a win for one of the half-dozen or so national-title favorites in a game against a UWSP or a Middlebury or a Christopher Newport. I also agree with Bob that this means that the tournament in March could be an absolutely awesome free-for-all.

Whitewater (who I admittedly haven't seen) MIGHT emerge as a team on a whole different level just because of all the transfer and frosh talent they have added to a core of some other solid players.  On paper (both statistically and looking at roster talent) they appear scary.  But that is speculative right now. 

Yes, UW-Whitewater is extremely talented.  They have 4 key transfers:

* Chris Jones, 6-0 Jr. G, 21.7 ppg, 2.5 rpg, 3.7 apg, .529 3-point (Wabash Valley JC, Iowa Lakes JC)
* Scotty Tyler, 6-8 Jr. F, 16.3 ppg, 7.1 rpg (D1 Idaho State, D1 UW-Milwaukee)
* Derek Rongstad, 6-5 So. G/F, 8.5 ppg (D1 UW-Milwaukee)
* Demetrius Woodley, 6-4 Jr. G/F, 7.2 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2.1 apg (Mid Plains JC,  Iowa Lakes JC)

In terms of pure talent, the Warhawks are probably at a different level than the other top teams...just a matter of seeing if all those new parts mesh with the returning parts over the course of a full season.

UW-Whitewater operates with a much different personnel model than most Division III schools.

In that vein, this post from the WIAC room is worth considering as well:

Here is a sign showing  Whitewater is much improved over last year: Cole van Schyndel, all-conference last season, played four minutes and scored no points in the most recent Whitewater game. I don't think he was injured. But maybe Badger Warhawk can straighten me out.

And, no, this doesn't mean that I'm buying into ShineTime's rantings about UWW, which are of tinfoil-hat quality in terms of their relationship to the historical reality of D3 men's basketball, any more than John Gleich is.

Other people may have made that argument, but not me. I've seen plenty of Babson online over the past two seasons, so I knew when I walked into Ratner this afternoon that I would see a team that would give the Maroons all that they could handle. And that was certainly the case.

Wish they'd handed you a mic! Missed having PBP on that game.

I thought about that when I looked up to the top of the Ratner stands when I arrived and didn't see anyone at the broadcast table. Perhaps I should've e-mailed Mike McGrath ahead of time and volunteered my services.

[nescac1]

re: Endicott, I was referring not to you but rather to the claims by Spencer that Babson has played a bunch of tomato cans / a weak schedule.  That's clearly not the case.

Scary bit of info on Whitewater.  This squad sounds a bit like the 1996 Rowan team in terms of its composition; that Rowan team might not be the best TEAM I've seen in D3 but it was easily the most individually talented.  Cabrini and AMC have also used similar models to build programs in the recent past so Whitewater is hardly unique. 

[Titan Q]

Scary bit of info on Whitewater.  This squad sounds a bit like the 1996 Rowan team in terms of its composition; that Rowan team might not be the best TEAM I've seen in D3 but it was easily the most individually talented. 

I'm confident Whitewater is not as talented as the '96 Rowan team - and probably not even all that close.  Unfortunately I saw the Profs close up (Rowan 79 IWU 77, national semifinal in Salem) and that was a whole different level.  Antwan Dasher was the the 5th all-time leading scorer in D1 Fairleigh Dickinson history, and accomplished that in 3 years; 6-10 Demetrius Pole was a good player at D1 St. Joseph's; Roscoe Harris was the most talented, having started at D1 Villanova for 3 years, playing alongside Kerry Kittles (Harris scored 24 vs Georgetown); and Terrance Stewart, the homegrown Rowan guy, was probably the most valuable player on the team.

There has not been a D3 team anywhere near as talented as the 1996 Rowan team since then and I doubt there ever will be again...unless the NCAA opens that loophole back up again.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

Don't get caught up in the comparative scores game. Babson is better than Illinois Wesleyan.

So one game result matters when it's Babson but not IWU.

The hypocrisy surrounding this school just grows and seemingly knows no bounds.

Why is everyone so hot on Babson that they're willing to throw logic and argumentative integrity out the window? Does anyone other than someone on a propaganda mission really think that Chicago is the measuring stick for Midwestern programs?

I've seen Illinois Wesleyan multiple times. I've seen Babson multiple times, and today I saw the Beavers in person.

Babson is better than Illinois Wesleyan.

It's not that complicated, Spence. It isn't a conspiracy, willful blindness, groupthink, or any other excuse. And I am not using Chicago as a measuring stick. In fact, I'm the one who just pointed out that Chicago shouldn't be a measuring stick when I warned against putting too much stock in comparative scores.

You're the Massey cheerleader who thinks that the D3 men's basketball championships committee should be using the Massey Ratings for its Selection Monday determinations. Well, as of this moment, Babson is #8 and Illinois Wesleyan is #16, according to Massey. And that's without taking today's Babson win at Ratner into consideration.

I didn't say you were using Chicago as a measuring stick. The Babson cheerleader (I can't remember the name) was, as if Chicago was comparable to Whitewater or IWU.

I think IWU is quite good, actually. Wouldn't surprise me if they were better than Babson if you actually got them on a court together. Beating Wash U on the road is a better win than any that Babson has, and none of IWU's losses are anything to be embarrassed about. When you play good teams, sometimes you're going to lose because someone has to and you can't play an A game every time (otherwise an A game would be your C game!).

Babson usually loses to the first proven and tested team they run into, and I imagine it'll be the same this year after their walk through their conference.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

Speaking of All-Americans, #13 North Park rode its two preseason All-Americans to victory tonight over a lightly-regarded but stubborn Manchester team, 93-84. Jordan Robinson had a 32 and 11 double-double and may find himself ranked #1 in the nation in three-point shooting when the next NCAA statistical rankings come out (he was trailing only UWW's Zach Knoblauch, and I'm pretty sure that Robinson's outshot Knoblauch from downtown since that last ranking), and the other Vikings star, Juwan Henry, had 23 points and seven assists.

Robinson is at .608, Keith Richardson is .595, Knoblauch is .590. I don't know when the next rankings come out but would imagine Robinson is leading for now.

Whitewater is shooting better than 48% from 3 as a team!

That's good research.  Thanks!  +k

Not that I'm interested in stirring up trouble between the two of you again, but Spence's info -- or at least the implication behind it -- is a little off. Yes, Keith Richardson of Marietta is shooting .595 from beyond the arc, but he does not qualify for the NCAA statistical ranking in that category. The NCAA's ranking for three-point FG% requires a minimum of 2.5 successful treys per game, and Richardson only averages 2 made treys per game. He's made 22 in Marietta's eleven games to date. He didn't qualify for last week's ranking, and he won't qualify for this coming week's, either.

My fault. I thought it was 1.5. Richardson only plays 20 mpg, though. He's good. 2.5 made per game is kind of a lot. Seems like that penalizes some really good shooters for just not chucking it enough or their team using them differently. But it is what it is.
Muskingum has a dude that's at like 58%, too, not sure the number of makes.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

I never derided Whitewater and I wouldn't.  But how many times do Northeast teams need to beat top 25 Midwest teams for you to change your totally uninformed, inflexible opinion?

How about when this trend changes?

1975 LeMoyne-Owen
1976 Scranton
1977 Wittenberg
1978 North Park
1979 North Park
1980 North Park
1981 Potsdam State
1982 Wabash
1983 Scranton
1984 UW-Whitewater
1985 North Park
1986 Potsdam State
1987 North Park
1988 Ohio Wesleyan
1989 UW-Whitewater
1990 Rochester
1991 UW-Platteville
1992 Calvin
1993 Ohio Northern
1994 Lebanon Valley
1995 UW-Platteville
1996 Rowan
1997 Illinois Wesleyan
1998 UW-Platteville
1999 UW-Platteville
2000 Calvin
2001 Catholic U.
2002 Otterbein
2003 Williams
2004 UW-Stevens Point
2005 UW-Stevens Point
2006 Virginia Wesleyan
2007 Amherst
2008 Washington U.
2009 Washington U.
2010 UW-Stevens Point
2011 St. Thomas
2012 UW-Whitewater
2013 Amherst
2014 UW-Whitewater
2015 UW-Stevens Point
2016 St. Thomas

3 New England champs in the history of D3, two the same school.

Uninformed? Inflexible? Or just playing the percentages?

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

Trying to sort out the Top 25 is always fun but when there is this much parity, I doubt there will be many concrete answers until things get settled in the tournament.  The tournament, by the way, should be awesome.  It's probably a year where any of the 21 Pool C teams could legitimately make a Final Four run.

If this is true, it'll be the first time ever. I don't think it will be. There are always some teams wrongly put in and teams snubbed that would have been better. Usually about half the Pool C's are legitimately good, the rest are pretty much making up the numbers.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

Whitewater (who I admittedly haven't seen) MIGHT emerge as a team on a whole different level just because of all the transfer and frosh talent they have added to a core of some other solid players.  On paper (both statistically and looking at roster talent) they appear scary.  But that is speculative right now. 

Yes, UW-Whitewater is extremely talented.  They have 4 key transfers:

* Chris Jones, 6-0 Jr. G, 21.7 ppg, 2.5 rpg, 3.7 apg, .529 3-point (Wabash Valley JC, Iowa Lakes JC)
* Scotty Tyler, 6-8 Jr. F, 16.3 ppg, 7.1 rpg (D1 Idaho State, D1 UW-Milwaukee)
* Derek Rongstad, 6-5 So. G/F, 8.5 ppg (D1 UW-Milwaukee)
* Demetrius Woodley, 6-4 Jr. G/F, 7.2 ppg, 4.1 rpg, 2.1 apg (Mid Plains JC,  Iowa Lakes JC)

In terms of pure talent, the Warhawks are probably at a different level than the other top teams...just a matter of seeing if all those new parts mesh with the returning parts over the course of a full season.

UW-Whitewater operates with a much different personnel model than most Division III schools.

This is a great argument for them being D-2.

[Darryl Nester]

... Muskingum has a dude that's at like 58%, too, not sure the number of makes.

I saw the Muskies play Friday and Saturday at Bluffton; the player in question (Rickey Wilson) has 22 treys in 11 games -- exactly 2.0/game.

[nescac1]

ELR you clearly don't know much about D3 history.  New England's best conference was only eligible to participate in the tourney starting in 1994.  Since then: seven title game appearances and three titles for New England.  Enough said.  Also I guess you weren't paying attention during, say, the last two weeks of play.  Sheesh. 

[nescac1]

Basically, over the last fifteen years it's been (1) WIAC (2) NESCAC (3) everyone else.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

re: Endicott, I was referring not to you but rather to the claims by Spencer that Babson has played a bunch of tomato cans / a weak schedule.  That's clearly not the case.

Endicott and Tufts are nothing special. Be like an OAC school touting a home win over Capital, Mount Union, John Carroll. Would you all consider those "proof"? There are probably 8-10 D3 schools in Ohio as good as Endicott and Tufts (not just in OAC, but NCAC as well). Certainly not all of them will end up in the tournament or even particularly close because of the competition level.

And it's not like we're talking about a power conference team here. Their best chance to put together "proof" is in their non-conference, and the best they come up with is a loss to Amherst and beating Chicago?