Top 25 talk

[Gregory Sager]

Greg, in the last fifteen years three (Midd!) NESCAC programs have made the Final Four.

Yep, you're right. Sorry about that, Bucket.

In three different years, two NESCAC teams were represented.  Three titles total, seven title game appearances (two of which were lost on final possession). I think 13 final fours total in that period of time.  Granted NESCAC has often had an easier path but averaging nearly one final four per year and one title game every other year over 15 years is pretty solid.

I agree with everything in that last sentence except for the inclusion of the word "often".

WIAC is number one easily but that resume speaks for itself.  And I think two other programs have made elite 8 during that timeframe showcasing the league's depth.

Nope, just one: UW-Oshkosh, back in 2003.

This is all a tangent.  My whole original point is that Babson's schedule was unfairly maligned which I think is now uncontroversial.

... except in the mind of one poster who, trust me, is going to continue to work it over like a terrier with a bone.

[Bucket]

2 point margin doesn't really make anything definitive.

Definitive? No, of course not.

But he specifically said, "Wouldn't surprise me if they were better than Babson if you actually got them on a court together." On the court together. They were on the court together with Middlebury, and they weren't better than a short-handed Middlebury. And Midd isn't as good as Babson. (Again, I say this as a Midd fan.)

So, by the measuring stick of getting on the court with a team, as he wrote, they failed.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

Yeah. I have no clue, and I'm sure you don't either, about how New England would have done prior to 1994.

But you complain about me not knowing history. At least I know my conference's history.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

Point is for all the bluster about New England, there's not a lot of reason to think they're actually the best, especially if you're not talking about Amherst being that standard-bearer.

Are there people here saying New England is the best? I think the current status of the discussion is as follows:

ElRetornodelEspencio: Babson plays a bunch of tomato cans.
Others: New England is better than that.

I'm sure others have read more about this than I have, but I think the 1981-82 Hamilton team is the one that had the best shot at a national title, had the NESCAC presidents allowed them to play.

http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/statsPDFArchive/MBB2/C/Men's%20Basketball_Men's_Division%20III_1982_267_Hamilton%20College.pdf
http://www.d3hoops.com/archives/men/1982

Their two best rebounders were 6-4 and 6-1. Surely you don't think they had anything for Wabash.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

... except in the mind of one poster who, trust me, is going to continue to work it over like a terrier with a bone.

We'll see what happens when Babson faces a quality team again. They failed in their first test of that sort, just as they did in basically all of them last year. And in most of those, their star became a late 30s Kobe-esque volume shooting machine.

Tufts at neutral and Endicott at home does not qualify for a team that is being fancied a potential champion.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

2 point margin doesn't really make anything definitive.

Definitive? No, of course not.

But he specifically said, "Wouldn't surprise me if they were better than Babson if you actually got them on a court together." On the court together. They were on the court together with Middlebury, and they weren't better than a short-handed Middlebury. And Midd isn't as good as Babson. (Again, I say this as a Midd fan.)

So, by the measuring stick of getting on the court with a team, as he wrote, they failed.

You can't be this stupid.

[Pat Coleman]

You can't be this stupid.

OK -- well, we can hold your posts in a queue for moderation for a while.

[smedindy]

What is it with the OAC wanting state schools to be D2?

Anyway...

Ramapo may be the biggest gainer, in terms of rating and points.

[PeterEscobar]

There has not been a D3 team anywhere near as talented as the 1996 Rowan team since then and I doubt there ever will be again...unless the NCAA opens that loophole back up again.

What loophole? Genuinely curious how that team got assembled as it sounds like a hell of a mid-major DI program haha

[Mr. Ypsi]

There has not been a D3 team anywhere near as talented as the 1996 Rowan team since then and I doubt there ever will be again...unless the NCAA opens that loophole back up again.

What loophole? Genuinely curious how that team got assembled as it sounds like a hell of a mid-major DI program haha

Back then D1 players who lost a year of eligibility due to lousy test scores coming into college (Prop 48, I think it was) could transfer to a D3 school to play a year after their D1 eligibility was up.  After that season, the "Rowan Rule" was passed to close that loophole.

IWU and Hope (the two teams who lost to Rowan in Salem) want a time machine game to settle the 'real' national champion that year!

[PeterEscobar]

There has not been a D3 team anywhere near as talented as the 1996 Rowan team since then and I doubt there ever will be again...unless the NCAA opens that loophole back up again.

What loophole? Genuinely curious how that team got assembled as it sounds like a hell of a mid-major DI program haha

Back then D1 players who lost a year of eligibility due to lousy test scores coming into college (Prop 48, I think it was) could transfer to a D3 school to play a year after their D1 eligibility was up.  After that season, the "Rowan Rule" was passed to close that loophole.

IWU and Hope (the two teams who lost to Rowan in Salem) want a time machine game to settle the 'real' national champion that year!

That is fantastic hahahaha

Also, with all this talk of IWU vs Babson I am sure that a pick-up game could have been arranged last night when they were presumably both flying in and out of Midway or O'Hare around the same time yesterday.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

What is it with the OAC wanting state schools to be D2?

Just struck me as a particularly D2 roster construction strategy -- most D3 can't just take Johnny C-minus from mediocre D1s or JUCOs.

[Gregory Sager]

There has not been a D3 team anywhere near as talented as the 1996 Rowan team since then and I doubt there ever will be again...unless the NCAA opens that loophole back up again.

What loophole? Genuinely curious how that team got assembled as it sounds like a hell of a mid-major DI program haha

Back then D1 players who lost a year of eligibility due to lousy test scores coming into college (Prop 48, I think it was) could transfer to a D3 school to play a year after their D1 eligibility was up.  After that season, the "Rowan Rule" was passed to close that loophole.

IWU and Hope (the two teams who lost to Rowan in Salem) want a time machine game to settle the 'real' national champion that year!

Again with this "real" national champion stuff? Why do I have to keep repeating this: Rowan was the real national champ in 1996. The Profs did not break any rules. John Giannini was completely within the letter of the law of the NCAA and D3 when he assembled that team. Yeah, it was ridiculous that nobody from the NCAA saw beforehand that not restricting Prop 48 players to only three years of eligibility on every level was going to be seen as an opportunity for those players to use their fifth year of schooling to play out that fourth season of eligibility on a D3 team, but, nevertheless, nobody did. Kudos to Giannini for finding that loophole (and then parlaying the resulting national championship into a D1 head coaching career).

Yeah, that Rowan title felt like it had a sort of tawdry vibe to it, inasmuch as it's a mystery as to whether or not any of those Prop 48 guys got their bachelor's degrees after five years of college. (I know that Terrence Stewart got his from a different New Jersey state school, Edison State, but he was the homegrown star on that '96 Profs team, not one of the Prop 48 imports.) But that title was nevertheless legit. Put the blame where it belongs -- on the organization that has eight million rules about everything and anything under the sun but didn't have a rule about the back end of the careers of Prop 48 student-athletes. As Bob said in one of the previous go-rounds on this topic back in 2010:

I've always felt like in a perfect world, IWU and Hope would have gotten a chance to play for the national title in 1996. But the D3 rules were what they were and Rowan won it fair and square.

[Pat Coleman]

You can't be this stupid.

OK -- well, we can hold your posts in a queue for moderation for a while.

Oh come on, I said *can't be*...isn't that giving credit? Like "well this is complete rubbish, but..."

I don't think a reasonable person sees your post as anything but an insult, no. And it had no other redeeming value.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Lighten up, Greg.  Apparently the  emoji has lost all meaning to you.

Of course they broke no rules (that's why the "Rowan Rule" was quickly passed after the fact).  But in my opinion they definitely violated the spirit of the rules (and the spirit of D3 itself), and I would rather have lost in 1996 than won the way they did.  I hope it is a consolation to the 6 seniors on the 1996 team (IMO probably the greatest IWU team ever except maybe for one of the Jack Sikma teams), that they won it all the next season with Bryan Crabtree and the JV'ers!

I'm still hoping for a time machine so Hope and IWU can play for the 'real' Division Three title in 1996!