Top 25 talk

[nescac1]

Of course, Mr. Ypsi, the Williams team that might have beaten Rowan on the road in the Sweet 16 but for a horribly-timed Geoff Chapin migraine might well have beaten either that year .  That Eph squad was downright nasty and subststially better than the next two years' Final Four teams. 

[sac]

Yeah, that Rowan title felt like it had a sort of tawdry vibe to it, inasmuch as it's a mystery as to whether or not any of those Prop 48 guys got their bachelor's degrees after five years of college. (I know that Terrence Stewart got his from a different New Jersey state school, Edison State, but he was the homegrown star on that '96 Profs team, not one of the Prop 48 imports.) But that title was nevertheless legit. Put the blame where it belongs -- on the organization that has eight million rules about everything and anything under the sun but didn't have a rule about the back end of the careers of Prop 48 student-athletes. As Bob said in one of the previous go-rounds on this topic back in 2010:

The 3 main guys for Rowan in 1996
Terrence Stewart played all 4 years at Rown and graduated
Antwan Dasher I believe did graduate from  Rowan after 3 years at a previous D1
Roscoe Harris unfortunately was the victim of murder reportedly before finishing his degree at another NJ state school though that is unclear after so many years.  I just remember hearing about this many years ago, probably here on d3hoops.    http://hudsonreporter.com/view/full_story/2373211/article-Hoops-star-mourned-Police-still-investigating-murder-of-local-basketballer--friend-in-custody

People also forget Rowan was in the Final Four 2 of the previous 3 years with a team centered around Terrence Stewart and were "favorites" in 1995 before being upset in the semi's by Steve Alford coached Manchester.  It wasn't like the two D1 and one D2 transfers in 1996 made them a flash in the pan champion.

If not for a Sectional Final loss in OT to NYU in '94 Rowan would have been to 4 straight Final Fours.



One interesting thing about Prop 48 is that a former member of Hope admissions helped write the standards for Prop 48 while employed at a Big Ten school. Though they had no authority or interest in post 4 year eligibility stuff.

[Gregory Sager]

Lighten up, Greg.  Apparently the  emoji has lost all meaning to you.

Lightening the mood with an emoji doesn't take away the fact that you've already been over this ground a few times before. The joke gets old, Chuck, and it's not entirely fair to Rowan, either. That's all I'm saying.

Of course they broke no rules (that's why the "Rowan Rule" was quickly passed after the fact).  But in my opinion they definitely violated the spirit of the rules (and the spirit of D3 itself), and I would rather have lost in 1996 than won the way they did.

That doesn't read like the stance of a guy who is making an emoji-laden joke, Chuck. It sounds like you really do believe that Rowan doesn't deserve that Walnut & Bronze in the school's trophy case.

I hope it is a consolation to the 6 seniors on the 1996 team (IMO probably the greatest IWU team ever except maybe for one of the Jack Sikma teams)

I just shake my head in wonderment that you have an opinion about the comparative strength of IWU teams that you never saw. This is all secondhand stuff to you, and yet you put an IMO next to your assessment of these teams?

Yeah, that Rowan title felt like it had a sort of tawdry vibe to it, inasmuch as it's a mystery as to whether or not any of those Prop 48 guys got their bachelor's degrees after five years of college. (I know that Terrence Stewart got his from a different New Jersey state school, Edison State, but he was the homegrown star on that '96 Profs team, not one of the Prop 48 imports.) But that title was nevertheless legit. Put the blame where it belongs -- on the organization that has eight million rules about everything and anything under the sun but didn't have a rule about the back end of the careers of Prop 48 student-athletes. As Bob said in one of the previous go-rounds on this topic back in 2010:

The 3 main guys for Rowan that year.
Terrence Stewart I think played all 4 years at Rown and graduated

Yes, as I mentioned earlier, he eventually graduated from Thomas Edison State University, a New Jersey state school that doesn't have athletics. He was the head coach at D3 Immaculata for awhile; he is currently the head coach at D2 Georgian Court University in New Jersey.

Antwan Dasher I believe did graduate from  Rowan after 3 years at a previous D1
Roscoe Harris unfortunately was the victim of murder reportedly before finishing his degree at another NJ state school though that is unclear after so many years.  I just remember hearing about this many years ago, probably here on d3hoops.    http://hudsonreporter.com/view/full_story/2373211/article-Hoops-star-mourned-Police-still-investigating-murder-of-local-basketballer--friend-in-custody

Didn't know about Dasher. Did know about Harris, unfortunately. But wouldn't Dasher have spent four years at Fairleigh Dickinson? The point to Prop 48 was to make a non-qualifying player ineligible as a D1 freshman, and if he maintained his grades as a freshman he was then granted eligibility for his final three years at that D1 school, which would've made Dasher, Poles, and Harris fifth-year seniors.

Anyway, one more piece to the mystery solved. Thanks, sac!

One interesting thing about Prop 48 is that a former member of Hope admissions helped write the standards for Prop 48 while employed at a Big Ten school.

That certainly added a level of irony to the saga of Holstege, Bosma & Co., didn't it?

Prop 48 was a step in the right direction in terms of restoring proper equilibrium to D1 between academics and sports, even though it was eventually superseded by Prop 16 and other policies. As far as I'm concerned, if their time at Rowan resulted in those guys getting their degrees, or got them closer to it, then the presumptive academic purpose behind their stay at that school was realized and that whole "spirit of the law" accusation goes away.

[Gregory Sager]

Of course, Mr. Ypsi, the Williams team that might have beaten Rowan on the road in the Sweet 16 but for a horribly-timed Geoff Chapin migraine might well have beaten either that year .  That Eph squad was downright nasty and subststially better than the next two years' Final Four teams.

The '95-'96 Rowan team may have been the most talented aggregation of ballplayers in the Salem era of D3, but those Profs weren't invincible. They lost four games that season: New Jersey City beat them by thirteen, Catholic beat them by three, Stockton beat them by one, and then Stockton beat them again in the NJAC tourney title game by thirteen. Rowan later exacted revenge upon Stockton by beating the Ospreys in the sectional finals the night after they beat your Ephs, as the Profs prevailed by a whopping 28 points to even the season series with Stockton at 2-2 (with the Profs, of course, having the bragging rights in terms of the most important contest out of those four). Point is, though, that they didn't run the table the way that Bo Ryan's UW-Platteville teams did a couple of times during that decade.

[nescac1]

Agreed.  I wrote earlier in the thread that they were the most talented team, but not the best TEAM.  The Bo Ryan juggernaut deserves that honor even though the best guy from any of those squads wouldn't have been in the top three players on Rowan.  But man could they play together, especially on the defensive end.  I've never seen anyone get more out the talent on hand in either D1 or D3 than Ryan (and he worked with plenty of talent, to boot). 

Williams finally ended the Rowan string of Final Fours in the Sweet 16 in 1997, but that team was a shadow of the 1996 title team ... even still a tough out. 

[Knightstalker]

Of course, Mr. Ypsi, the Williams team that might have beaten Rowan on the road in the Sweet 16 but for a horribly-timed Geoff Chapin migraine might well have beaten either that year .  That Eph squad was downright nasty and subststially better than the next two years' Final Four teams.

The '95-'96 Rowan team may have been the most talented aggregation of ballplayers in the Salem era of D3, but those Profs weren't invincible. They lost four games that season: New Jersey City beat them by thirteen, Catholic beat them by three, Stockton beat them by one, and then Stockton beat them again in the NJAC tourney title game by thirteen. Rowan later exacted revenge upon Stockton by beating the Ospreys in the sectional finals the night after they beat your Ephs, as the Profs prevailed by a whopping 28 points to even the season series with Stockton at 2-2 (with the Profs, of course, having the bragging rights in terms of the most important contest out of those four). Point is, though, that they didn't run the table the way that Bo Ryan's UW-Platteville teams did a couple of times during that decade.

You beat me to it Greg, that Rowan team did not have a cakewalk through the NJAC.  The game against JCSC (now NJCU) were some great games.  That may have been the era when the NJAC was in its prime.  JCSC, Rowan, Montclair and Stockton were the cream of the crop but the rest were no slouch.  That was when Jose Rembibas was building a defensive powerhouse at William Paterson, Ramapo had just hired Chuck McBreen around then and Kean, TCNJ and Rutgers Newark were tough opponents that you could not sleep on.

Roscoe was attending classes at JCSC trying to finish up his degree when he was murdered.  It was a shame, he was one of the nicest people you could meet.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Point is for all the bluster about New England, there's not a lot of reason to think they're actually the best, especially if you're not talking about Amherst being that standard-bearer.

Are there people here saying New England is the best? I think the current status of the discussion is as follows:

ElRetornodelEspencio: Babson plays a bunch of tomato cans.
Others: New England is better than that.

I'm sure others have read more about this than I have, but I think the 1981-82 Hamilton team is the one that had the best shot at a national title, had the NESCAC presidents allowed them to play.

http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/statsPDFArchive/MBB2/C/Men's%20Basketball_Men's_Division%20III_1982_267_Hamilton%20College.pdf
http://www.d3hoops.com/archives/men/1982

Their two best rebounders were 6-4 and 6-1. Surely you don't think they had anything for Wabash.

UW-Stevens Point's best rebounders where 6-1 and 6-0 when they won the national championship two years ago... the second two were 6-4 and 6-4... not to mention the fact, teams were far smaller in the 80s than they are now. Not sure what point you are trying to make in an attempt to dismiss Hamilton.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Of course, Mr. Ypsi, the Williams team that might have beaten Rowan on the road in the Sweet 16 but for a horribly-timed Geoff Chapin migraine might well have beaten either that year .  That Eph squad was downright nasty and subststially better than the next two years' Final Four teams.

Maybe.  There is probably usually at least one championship-caliber team who loses in an early round due to some unfortunate situation (or flat-out upset).  I went the easy route and just considered the teams in Salem, and the fourth team, Franklin & Marshall was totally overwhelmed by both Hope and IWU.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I hope it is a consolation to the 6 seniors on the 1996 team (IMO probably the greatest IWU team ever except maybe for one of the Jack Sikma teams)

I just shake my head in wonderment that you have an opinion about the comparative strength of IWU teams that you never saw. This is all secondhand stuff to you, and yet you put an IMO next to your assessment of these teams?

There are other sources of information besides first-hand observation.  I also have opinions about Civil War events, and even events in ancient Rome and Greece!   Even if the information is secondhand, it is still my (consolidated and considered) opinion, so why wouldn't I put IMO?  (BTW, I should add the 1970 team, which I DID see MANY times, and the next-to-last team ever to go undefeated in the CCIW, as maybe better than 1996.)

[Mr. Ypsi]

Of course, Mr. Ypsi, the Williams team that might have beaten Rowan on the road in the Sweet 16 but for a horribly-timed Geoff Chapin migraine might well have beaten either that year .  That Eph squad was downright nasty and subststially better than the next two years' Final Four teams.

The '95-'96 Rowan team may have been the most talented aggregation of ballplayers in the Salem era of D3, but those Profs weren't invincible. They lost four games that season: New Jersey City beat them by thirteen, Catholic beat them by three, Stockton beat them by one, and then Stockton beat them again in the NJAC tourney title game by thirteen. Rowan later exacted revenge upon Stockton by beating the Ospreys in the sectional finals the night after they beat your Ephs, as the Profs prevailed by a whopping 28 points to even the season series with Stockton at 2-2 (with the Profs, of course, having the bragging rights in terms of the most important contest out of those four). Point is, though, that they didn't run the table the way that Bo Ryan's UW-Platteville teams did a couple of times during that decade.

Never said (or thought) that they were invincible - after all, we came oh-so-close to 'vincing' them!  They got three shots in the final 7 seconds, and the final tip-in was finally the winner.  Oh!  For ONE more defensive rebound!

[Greek Tragedy]

http://www.d3hoops.com/top25/men/2016-17/week5

So new poll is out if anyone cares.

4 new entrants, 2 NJAC teams and 2 NESCAC teams.

[mailsy]

http://www.d3hoops.com/top25/men/2016-17/week5

So new poll is out if anyone cares.

4 new entrants, 2 NJAC teams and 2 NESCAC teams.

It looks like all the undefeated teams are ranked in the Top 25. Will any of those teams drop out with a loss this week? Time will tell.

[Knightstalker]

Lighten up, Greg.  Apparently the  emoji has lost all meaning to you.

Lightening the mood with an emoji doesn't take away the fact that you've already been over this ground a few times before. The joke gets old, Chuck, and it's not entirely fair to Rowan, either. That's all I'm saying.

Of course they broke no rules (that's why the "Rowan Rule" was quickly passed after the fact).  But in my opinion they definitely violated the spirit of the rules (and the spirit of D3 itself), and I would rather have lost in 1996 than won the way they did.

That doesn't read like the stance of a guy who is making an emoji-laden joke, Chuck. It sounds like you really do believe that Rowan doesn't deserve that Walnut & Bronze in the school's trophy case.

I hope it is a consolation to the 6 seniors on the 1996 team (IMO probably the greatest IWU team ever except maybe for one of the Jack Sikma teams)

I just shake my head in wonderment that you have an opinion about the comparative strength of IWU teams that you never saw. This is all secondhand stuff to you, and yet you put an IMO next to your assessment of these teams?

Yeah, that Rowan title felt like it had a sort of tawdry vibe to it, inasmuch as it's a mystery as to whether or not any of those Prop 48 guys got their bachelor's degrees after five years of college. (I know that Terrence Stewart got his from a different New Jersey state school, Edison State, but he was the homegrown star on that '96 Profs team, not one of the Prop 48 imports.) But that title was nevertheless legit. Put the blame where it belongs -- on the organization that has eight million rules about everything and anything under the sun but didn't have a rule about the back end of the careers of Prop 48 student-athletes. As Bob said in one of the previous go-rounds on this topic back in 2010:

The 3 main guys for Rowan that year.
Terrence Stewart I think played all 4 years at Rown and graduated

Yes, as I mentioned earlier, he eventually graduated from Thomas Edison State University, a New Jersey state school that doesn't have athletics. He was the head coach at D3 Immaculata for awhile; he is currently the head coach at D2 Georgian Court University in New Jersey.

Antwan Dasher I believe did graduate from  Rowan after 3 years at a previous D1
Roscoe Harris unfortunately was the victim of murder reportedly before finishing his degree at another NJ state school though that is unclear after so many years.  I just remember hearing about this many years ago, probably here on d3hoops.    http://hudsonreporter.com/view/full_story/2373211/article-Hoops-star-mourned-Police-still-investigating-murder-of-local-basketballer--friend-in-custody

Didn't know about Dasher. Did know about Harris, unfortunately. But wouldn't Dasher have spent four years at Fairleigh Dickinson? The point to Prop 48 was to make a non-qualifying player ineligible as a D1 freshman, and if he maintained his grades as a freshman he was then granted eligibility for his final three years at that D1 school, which would've made Dasher, Poles, and Harris fifth-year seniors.

Anyway, one more piece to the mystery solved. Thanks, sac!

One interesting thing about Prop 48 is that a former member of Hope admissions helped write the standards for Prop 48 while employed at a Big Ten school.

That certainly added a level of irony to the saga of Holstege, Bosma & Co., didn't it?

Prop 48 was a step in the right direction in terms of restoring proper equilibrium to D1 between academics and sports, even though it was eventually superseded by Prop 16 and other policies. As far as I'm concerned, if their time at Rowan resulted in those guys getting their degrees, or got them closer to it, then the presumptive academic purpose behind their stay at that school was realized and that whole "spirit of the law" accusation goes away.

Just a quick note on Thomas Edison State College, they are an accredited college with only a very small campus.  They take your transcript if you have not finished your degree and tell you what is needed for your degree and you can take classes at a school close to home and when you have met their requirements they will award you a degree.  I know several people who have finished their education with them after dropping out of school due to work, family or other reasons.

[Knightstalker]

http://www.d3hoops.com/top25/men/2016-17/week5

So new poll is out if anyone cares.

4 new entrants, 2 NJAC teams and 2 NESCAC teams.

No, it can't be, those conferences don't play tough competition.   

Sometimes, I just can't help myself.

[Titan Q]

It seems very odd that Wash U is ranked ahead of Illinois Wesleyan.