Top 25 talk

[Gregory Sager]

Point is for all the bluster about New England, there's not a lot of reason to think they're actually the best, especially if you're not talking about Amherst being that standard-bearer.

Are there people here saying New England is the best? I think the current status of the discussion is as follows:

ElRetornodelEspencio: Babson plays a bunch of tomato cans.
Others: New England is better than that.

I'm sure others have read more about this than I have, but I think the 1981-82 Hamilton team is the one that had the best shot at a national title, had the NESCAC presidents allowed them to play.

http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/statsPDFArchive/MBB2/C/Men's%20Basketball_Men's_Division%20III_1982_267_Hamilton%20College.pdf
http://www.d3hoops.com/archives/men/1982

Their two best rebounders were 6-4 and 6-1. Surely you don't think they had anything for Wabash.

UW-Stevens Point's best rebounders where 6-1 and 6-0 when they won the national championship two years ago... the second two were 6-4 and 6-4... not to mention the fact, teams were far smaller in the 80s than they are now. Not sure what point you are trying to make in an attempt to dismiss Hamilton.

The people who saw Jeff Gibbs play for Otterbein in '02 would like to have a word with Spence, too.

I hope it is a consolation to the 6 seniors on the 1996 team (IMO probably the greatest IWU team ever except maybe for one of the Jack Sikma teams)

I just shake my head in wonderment that you have an opinion about the comparative strength of IWU teams that you never saw. This is all secondhand stuff to you, and yet you put an IMO next to your assessment of these teams?

There are other sources of information besides first-hand observation.  I also have opinions about Civil War events, and even events in ancient Rome and Greece!   Even if the information is secondhand, it is still my (consolidated and considered) opinion, so why wouldn't I put IMO?  (BTW, I should add the 1970 team, which I DID see MANY times, and the next-to-last team ever to go undefeated in the CCIW, as maybe better than 1996.)

Bob's our resident expert on Illinois Wesleyan men's basketball, and you never see him make declarations like that about IWU teams that he didn't see. He always qualifies any statements he makes about, say, the 1987-88 team with the preface, "I never saw them, but ..." or "Long-time fans tell me ...". But to each his own, I guess.

Of course, Mr. Ypsi, the Williams team that might have beaten Rowan on the road in the Sweet 16 but for a horribly-timed Geoff Chapin migraine might well have beaten either that year .  That Eph squad was downright nasty and subststially better than the next two years' Final Four teams.

The '95-'96 Rowan team may have been the most talented aggregation of ballplayers in the Salem era of D3, but those Profs weren't invincible. They lost four games that season: New Jersey City beat them by thirteen, Catholic beat them by three, Stockton beat them by one, and then Stockton beat them again in the NJAC tourney title game by thirteen. Rowan later exacted revenge upon Stockton by beating the Ospreys in the sectional finals the night after they beat your Ephs, as the Profs prevailed by a whopping 28 points to even the season series with Stockton at 2-2 (with the Profs, of course, having the bragging rights in terms of the most important contest out of those four). Point is, though, that they didn't run the table the way that Bo Ryan's UW-Platteville teams did a couple of times during that decade.

Never said (or thought) that they were invincible - after all, we came oh-so-close to 'vincing' them!  They got three shots in the final 7 seconds, and the final tip-in was finally the winner.  Oh!  For ONE more defensive rebound!

That wasn't directed at you. That was simply a general comment on the subject of the 1995-96 Profs and their putative status as the greatest team (or, alternatively, the greatest collection of players) of D3's Salem era.

http://www.d3hoops.com/top25/men/2016-17/week5

So new poll is out if anyone cares.

4 new entrants, 2 NJAC teams and 2 NESCAC teams.

... and NPU's first-ever appearance in the top ten! This is a big day for the Vikings program, and a sign of how far it has come since Tom Slyder took over as head coach four and a half seasons ago.

Now the Vikings have to prove that they belong there by beating Carthage (8-3, 2-1) and North Central (8-4, 2-1) this week, neither of which is going to be an easy task.

Just a quick note on Thomas Edison State College, they are an accredited college with only a very small campus.  They take your transcript if you have not finished your degree and tell you what is needed for your degree and you can take classes at a school close to home and when you have met their requirements they will award you a degree.  I know several people who have finished their education with them after dropping out of school due to work, family or other reasons.

That's a useful and valuable kind of institution to have around.

It seems very odd that Wash U is ranked ahead of Illinois Wesleyan.

... especially given how recent the Titans' win over the Bears was. I could possibly see Wash U getting the nod over IWU if their game had been played back in November, if other factors favored the Bears, but that game was only played two weeks ago. And while it was only a one-point decision, it was played in St. Louis on Wash U's home floor.

[AndOne]

It seems very odd that Wash U is ranked ahead of Illinois Wesleyan.

Me too. Didn't IWU beat WU?
Of course there are teams who have beaten three teams ranked above them so there is just no explaining some things.

But don't worry Q. WU's next two games are away against teams with 8-3 and 9-2 records while Wesleyan gets to play both of it's next two at home against teams with losing records. As such, it looks like you'll only have to suffer for a week as it appears that after the next poll WU will be looking up at you. 😊

[mailsy]

It seems very odd that Wash U is ranked ahead of Illinois Wesleyan.

... especially given how recent the Titans' win over the Bears was. I could possibly see Wash U getting the nod over IWU if their game had been played back in November, if other factors favored the Bears, but that game was only played two weeks ago. And while it was only a one-point decision, it was played in St. Louis on Wash U's home floor.

Could it be midwest bias? 

I'm sorry I couldn't help myself. 

[Titan Q]

... especially given how recent the Titans' win over the Bears was. I could possibly see Wash U getting the nod over IWU if their game had been played back in November, if other factors favored the Bears, but that game was only played two weeks ago. And while it was only a one-point decision, it was played in St. Louis on Wash U's home floor.

And outside of the recent head-to-head IWU win at Wash U, I don't see what in Wash U's resume would trump that...

Wash U Losses
* at home vs #7 UW-Eau Claire by 14
* at Central (no votes) by 4
* at home vs Illinois Wesleyan by 1

Illinois Wesleyan Losses
* at North Central (receiving votes) by 9
* at home vs #10 North Park by 4
* neutral court vs #22 Middlebury by 2


As far as "good wins", IWU has an 18-point win over Chicago (receiving votes).  Wash U has wins at Augustana and at Wooster (neither are receiving votes).  IWU won at Ohio Wesleyan by 18...Wash U beat Ohio Wesleyan by 16 on a neutral floor.

[sac]

WashU is coming off two wins over Ohio Wesleyan and Wooster two names that carry a lot of weight with voters.  Whether they really should carry a lot of weight this year is yet to be determined.

[Titan Q]

WashU is coming off two wins over Ohio Wesleyan and Wooster two names that carry a lot of weight with voters.  Whether they really should carry a lot of weight this year is yet to be determined.

Well sure, but IWU beat the same Ohio Wesleyan team at Ohio Wesleyan...and Wooster is 6-6.  Neither OWU or Wooster has any votes in this week's poll.

During the same voting period, IWU had an 18-point win vs Chicago (receiving votes) and a 2-point neutral court loss vs #22 Middlebury.

Seems strange that those results would trump IWU's head-to-head win at Wash U.

[AndOne]

WashU is coming off two wins over Ohio Wesleyan and Wooster two names that carry a lot of weight with voters.  Whether they really should carry a lot of weight this year is yet to be determined.

Well sure, but IWU beat the same Ohio Wesleyan team at Ohio Wesleyan...and Wooster is 6-6.  Neither OWU or Wooster has any votes in this week's poll.

During the same voting period, IWU had an 18-point win vs Chicago (receiving votes) and a 2-point neutral court loss vs #22 Middlebury.

Seems strange that those results would trump outweigh IWU's head-to-head win at Wash U.

I fixed it for you. 🃏 

[Mr. Ypsi]

WashU is coming off two wins over Ohio Wesleyan and Wooster two names that carry a lot of weight with voters.  Whether they really should carry a lot of weight this year is yet to be determined.

Well sure, but IWU beat the same Ohio Wesleyan team at Ohio Wesleyan...and Wooster is 6-6.  Neither OWU or Wooster has any votes in this week's poll.

During the same voting period, IWU had an 18-point win vs Chicago (receiving votes) and a 2-point neutral court loss vs #22 Middlebury.

Seems strange that those results would trump outweigh IWU's head-to-head win at Wash U.

I fixed it for you. 🃏 

No "Trump" was the right word.  The Russians hacked this week's d3hoops.com poll!   They have it in for Ron Rose, because rose is not red enough.  And Putin is terrified of a Green Revolution.

[Gregory Sager]

WashU is coming off two wins over Ohio Wesleyan and Wooster two names that carry a lot of weight with voters.  Whether they really should carry a lot of weight this year is yet to be determined.

Well sure, but IWU beat the same Ohio Wesleyan team at Ohio Wesleyan...and Wooster is 6-6.  Neither OWU or Wooster has any votes in this week's poll.

During the same voting period, IWU had an 18-point win vs Chicago (receiving votes) and a 2-point neutral court loss vs #22 Middlebury.

Seems strange that those results would trump outweigh IWU's head-to-head win at Wash U.

I fixed it for you. 🃏 

No "Trump" was the right word.  The Russians hacked this week's d3hoops.com poll!   They have it in for Ron Rose, because rose is not red enough.  And Putin is terrified of a Green Revolution.

Problem is, Wash U wears green, too.

It's a new year, so instead of blaming it on the Russians I choose to blame the aberrant favoring of Wash U over Illinois Wesleyan on Mariah Carey.

[smedindy]

Thomas Edison State College was a client of mine as a consultant. They also work with quite a few military personnel in their quest for degrees. Their 'campus' is a building near the statehouse and the monolithic department of taxation. They used to have a lot of competition against the for-profit schools, but I think they've overcome that with the gradual demise of that market.

And now...back to the show....

[Mr. Ypsi]

WashU is coming off two wins over Ohio Wesleyan and Wooster two names that carry a lot of weight with voters.  Whether they really should carry a lot of weight this year is yet to be determined.

Well sure, but IWU beat the same Ohio Wesleyan team at Ohio Wesleyan...and Wooster is 6-6.  Neither OWU or Wooster has any votes in this week's poll.

During the same voting period, IWU had an 18-point win vs Chicago (receiving votes) and a 2-point neutral court loss vs #22 Middlebury.

Seems strange that those results would trump outweigh IWU's head-to-head win at Wash U.

I fixed it for you. 🃏 

No "Trump" was the right word.  The Russians hacked this week's d3hoops.com poll!   They have it in for Ron Rose, because rose is not red enough.  And Putin is terrified of a Green Revolution.

Problem is, Wash U wears green, too.

It's a new year, so instead of blaming it on the Russians I choose to blame the aberrant favoring of Wash U over Illinois Wesleyan on Mariah Carey.

True on the green.  But their history is replete with problems with 'rose'; I'm unaware of any problems with 'edwards'.  And your Mariah Carey reference is too obscure for this old guy - please enlighten.

Until shown otherwise, I'll still stick with the KGB-led Russkies!

[Gregory Sager]

We'll make a culturally cutting-edge kind of guy of you yet, Chuck.

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/01/arts/music/mariah-carey-new-years-eve-times-square.html?_r=0

[Pat Coleman]

We'll make a culturally cutting-edge kind of guy of you yet, Chuck.

I'd like to see the action plan on that.

[Gregory Sager]

LOL!

[AndOne]

I hope it is a consolation to the 6 seniors on the 1996 team (IMO probably the greatest IWU team ever except maybe for one of the Jack Sikma teams)

I just shake my head in wonderment that you have an opinion about the comparative strength of IWU teams that you never saw. This is all secondhand stuff to you, and yet you put an IMO next to your assessment of these teams?

There are other sources of information besides first-hand observation.  I also have opinions about Civil War events, and even events in ancient Rome and Greece!   Even if the information is secondhand, it is still my (consolidated and considered) opinion, so why wouldn't I put IMO?  (BTW, I should add the 1970 team, which I DID see MANY times, and the next-to-last team ever to go undefeated in the CCIW, as maybe better than 1996.)

Bob's our resident expert on Illinois Wesleyan men's basketball, and you never see him make declarations like that about IWU teams that he didn't see. He always qualifies any statements he makes about, say, the 1987-88 team with the preface, "I never saw them, but ..." or "Long-time fans tell me ...". But to each his own, I guess.

Greg,

Certainly you're not discounting the role research can play in the formulation of an opinion about a historical event, sporting or otherwise.
I suspect you, yourself often do research before regaling us with one of your frequent lectures on an obscure game or season.

Additionally, I think you need to give Ypsi the benefit of the doubt here. i sense he isn't in the habit of just throwing out a totally unsupported opinion about something he didn't personally witness without doing some degree of research on the subject beforehand.

Also, with regard to Bob never failing to include qualifying language when posting about a Wesleyan event that he did witness, I think those of us who have been reading his posts for any length of time pretty much know exactly what his opinion on any Wesleyan subject is, qualifying language or not. And this is not a criticism, but rather, an observation.

Lastly, yes, to each his own. Often there are two ways of doing things-one just as right or wrong as the other.