Top 25 talk

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Posted my Top 25 ballot this morning... here for you to peruse: http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2017/01/03/daves-top-25-ballot-16-17-week-5/

I will freely admit there is plenty of room to argue who should and shouldn't be on my ballot... but I don't have countless hours each week. At some point, I have to cut-bait and post my ballot to the system.

[y_jack_lok]

I'm pretty sure every CCIW program but Millikin and Carroll(first year in the league) have been ranked in the top 10 at some time in d3hoops.com polls history.  This is the polls 18th year.

I can't imagine there are a lot of conference that can point to 7 different programs being in the top 10 at one point or another.

ODAC might have -- Guilford, Eastern Mennonite, Hampden-Sydney, Lynchburg, Randolph, Randolph-Macon, Virginia Wesleyan I believe have all been ranked at some point. Not sure about Bridgewater, Emory & Henry, Shenandoah (somewhat new to the conference, maybe 4 or 5 years), Roanoke, Washington & Lee. But the ODAC is a 12 team conference, the CCIW has only 9 --and only 8 before this season, right?

[gordonmann]

I wondered if a conference ever had five teams in the top 25 simultaneously like the NESCAC does right now.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I wondered if a conference ever had five teams in the top 25 simultaneously like the NESCAC does right now.

Those curious... I am working on a historical record of the Top 25 in the coming days/weeks... so we can have answers like this immediately.

[Gregory Sager]

The implication is that those guys may not have had much effect against the eventual national champ of that year. The ESPN broadcast of that title game is on our 1982 NCAA Tournament page.

http://www.d3hoops.com/archives/men/1982

Quite right. I can't believe all these so-called experts here that have so much shade to throw at me didn't know who Pete Metzelaars is. I assume the only D3 basketball champion to play in the championship of a major US sport. One of the best players in D3 history. Maybe the best ever center.

This board isn't going to live this one down for a long time. You all just got exposed.

Whoa. Back off, Spence. Just because nobody mentioned Metzelaars doesn't mean that none of us were aware of him or of the fact that he was an All-American basketball player for the 1981-82 champion Little Giants. I, for one, am well aware of Metzelaars -- not just because I've been following D3 men's basketball since the late '70s, but because I'm a hardcore Buffalo Bills fan as well. Plus, that '82 title game link has been around for a long time, and I've watched that game full through at least twice that I can remember.

Metzelaars was a great basketball player, indeed. I wouldn't slot him as the best-ever D3 center, but he's certainly in the conversation. But that doesn't mean that there was no contemporary or subsequent team in D3 history that happened to have smaller centers, including '82 Hamilton, that could have beaten '82 Wabash. For one thing, one big man doesn't necessarily dictate the entire pulse of a game, even in the rebounding department. One of the essential and eternal truths of basketball is that big men are dependent upon the little men who give them the ball. Also, I have seen plenty of good teams that have smaller centers do an excellent job on the boards through teamwork (rebounding's not just a one-man job, you know), athleticism, discipline, and hustle. The UWSP team of two years ago that's already been cited is an excellent example of that. Finally, there have been fantastic centers in their own right at this level who weren't blessed with overactive pituitary glands. I already cited one: Jeff Gibbs from the '02 national champion Otterbein team, a three-time All-American and two-time OAC POY. Like Metzelaars he was a dual-sport All-American in both football and basketball. Unlike Metzelaars, he was not particularly tall. He was listed on the Cardinals' basketball roster at 6'3, but on their football roster he was 6'1. And in the national championship game that year he had a 25 and 25 double-double, rivaling Metzelaar's '82 performance as the best game that any individual has ever had in a D3 title contest.

Plus the game was pre 3-point era, pre shot clock. I'm not sure anyone that's ever played in the championship game since would have beaten Wabash the way they played under those rules.

There were plenty of ways to beat a team with a good big man during the pre-shot-clock era. I don't want to spend the day arguing with you over vintage-epoch basketball coaching styles, but it could be done and it was done on plenty of occasions.

I just don't see a way you could deal with someone like Metzelaars under those conditions. He had great hands and was a great passer to boot. A similar (but shorter, and arguably less good shooter) D1 player led a MAC team to the Elite 8. People on this board would have written Wabash off when they started 5-4, probably.

I understand that you have a me-against-the-world mentality, but you're really not helping your case every time that you lump all of the posters in this room together like that. This is a very diverse room as far as thoughts and opinions about D3 basketball are concerned.

What in the world happened to Potsdam basketball, anyway?

Jerry Welsh left for Iona in 1991, and the magic (i.e., recruiting acumen) left the North Country with him. Sherry Dobbs briefly revived the program in the mid-'00s, going 3-2 in the tourney in two appearances and reaching the Elite Eight in '05, but he couldn't sustain it and the Bears soon fell back to the bottom half of the SUNYAC.

Look at a map of New York state. Potsdam's not the easiest place in the world for a basketball coach to recruit. It makes what Welsh accomplished in the late '70s and the '80s all the more amazing.

[Gregory Sager]

I wondered if a conference ever had five teams in the top 25 simultaneously like the NESCAC does right now.

Those curious... I am working on a historical record of the Top 25 in the coming days/weeks... so we can have answers like this immediately.

I hope that you can answer y_jack's question about the ODAC and top-ten rankings as well. I'm curious to see if the CCIW has or has not had more programs make the top ten than any other league.

As for Gordon's question, I would be interested in hearing from nescac1 or the other NESCAC posters as to whether or not that league has ever had an across-the-board class of seniors like this one.

[nescac1]

NESCAC has a tremendous and in particular tremendously deep senior class this year (and a strangely weak junior class, so expect some league-wide regression next year).  The class of 2014 was stronger at the top (Toomey, Mayer, Kizell) but I'd say not nearly as deep.  2008 was another year with a very strong, very deep senior class (Andrew Olson, Fletcher Walters, Russ Martin, Robert Taylor, Chris Rose, Chris Shalvoy, Jake Weitzen, Andrew Hippert, Bryan Wholly, Charles Stone, that was a loaded year and fairly comparable to 2014).  I'm sure there are others I'm not thinking of.  This year does feature a lot of really good seniors (especially senior big men) on teams in the bottom-half of the league, which is unusual.  And of course Amherst has the benefit of six of its top eight guys being seniors.  Only Bowdoin and Colby are largely devoid of senior talent.

I don't think the talent level in this year's senior class is historically unique because there isn't that single transcendent player, somewhat mitigating the incredible depth.  Now, if Duncan Robinson and Hunter Sabety hadn't transferred to D1 (both would be seniors right now), then there is no question this senior class would be the best in NESCAC history.  But there isn't any one player nearly as strong as a Toomey, Mayer or Olson (or Robinson) in this class.   

[Gregory Sager]

Even so, one single transcendent player isn't going to affect five teams. I think that, when you're talking about an entire league, breadth of talent is a much better indicator of a class's overall rank than whether or not it has that one or two great standouts, especially when that breadth of talent reflects upon that league's national stature in a given season.

[nescac1]

Fair enough Greg.  Looking at the NESCAC teams ranked (and I think all five deserrve to be ranked, although I continue to be surprised at how high Tufts is), there is definitely a strong senior presence.  Amherst is of course the most senior-dependant.  Midd is led by St. Amour and Brown plus brings Jones off the bench.  Wesleyan has Kuo, Rafferty and Reed.  Tufts, Palleschi and Tarik Smith, plus back-up center Madsen.  Williams, which is a sophomore-dominated team, is the youngest of the bunch, but even the Ephs are led by a star senior in Aronowitz.  Bates, Trinity and Conn College all have strong groups of seniors as well. 

[Gregory Sager]

Speaking of Duncan Robinson, there was a story in yesterday's New York Times about him:

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/02/sports/ncaabasketball/duncan-robinson-michigan-williams.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share&_r=0

(Warning: The author's condescension towards D3 just oozes off of the page.)

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

Posted my Top 25 ballot this morning... here for you to peruse: http://www.d3blogs.com/d3hoops/2017/01/03/daves-top-25-ballot-16-17-week-5/

I will freely admit there is plenty of room to argue who should and shouldn't be on my ballot... but I don't have countless hours each week. At some point, I have to cut-bait and post my ballot to the system.

Are you even aware that Marietta was missing their tallest player for those games (well other than a guy that plays sparingly)? Take a competent 6-6 guy off pretty much any D3 team and I imagine it's going to hurt, even if he doesn't do things that show up on the stat sheet (post defense and box out responsibilities on the boards are important too). Leaving aside your ranking itself, the nature of your criticism is way, way off base. The Whitman game was basically a toss up. The other games MC lost because they shot poorly and committed turnovers (partly because the officiating in FL was awful with a capital A).

I understand that you don't have unlimited time, but in that case don't write like you have detailed knowledge that you don't.

[AndOne]

Speaking of Duncan Robinson, there was a story in yesterday's New York Times about him:

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/02/sports/ncaabasketball/duncan-robinson-michigan-williams.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share&_r=0

(Warning: The author's condescension towards D3 just oozes off of the page.)

Just like so many others who refer to D3 with disdain. 
I think many, not all, sports columnists must somehow be related to many, again not all, AAU coaches.
A large percentage of both groups wants little too nothing to do with non D1 level players. 
That's because D3 level players don't generate much interest among the columnists, nor much money for the AAU coaches.

[AO]

Speaking of Duncan Robinson, there was a story in yesterday's New York Times about him:

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/02/sports/ncaabasketball/duncan-robinson-michigan-williams.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share&_r=0

(Warning: The author's condescension towards D3 just oozes off of the page.)

Just like so many others who refer to D3 with disdain. 
I think many, not all, sports columnists must somehow be related to many, again not all, AAU coaches.
A large percentage of both groups wants little too nothing to do with non D1 level players. 
That's because D3 level players don't generate much interest among the columnists, nor much money for the AAU coaches.

The comparison to a sixth-grade Christmas pageant was a little ridiculous.

I can understand some of the resistance AAU coaches and high school coaches have against sending players to D3 schools.  I read Bob Hurley Sr.'s book and his experience with some of his players going to Ramapo for a couple years just to end up with a bunch of debt and no degree.

[Gregory Sager]

Speaking of Duncan Robinson, there was a story in yesterday's New York Times about him:

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/02/sports/ncaabasketball/duncan-robinson-michigan-williams.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share&_r=0

(Warning: The author's condescension towards D3 just oozes off of the page.)

Just like so many others who refer to D3 with disdain. 
I think many, not all, sports columnists must somehow be related to many, again not all, AAU coaches.
A large percentage of both groups wants little too nothing to do with non D1 level players. 
That's because D3 level players don't generate much interest among the columnists, nor much money for the AAU coaches.

Another reason why a lot of journalists look down upon D3 is the same reason why a lot of sports fans in general do so: Sheer ignorance. And in David Waldstein's case, it's compounded by the fact that he's not even a college basketball writer; he's a NYT baseball columnist. I don't know if his editor at the sports desk of the Off-White Dowager assigned him this story or if he volunteered for it because he's a Michigan alumnus, but this is not his normal bailiwick.

The fact that Waldstein graduated from Michigan also helps to explain the whole "wow, Williams is really tiny" vibe and the crack about the NESCAC being "quaint" in his piece. The reader definitely gets the sense that "bigger is better" applies not only to basketball but to the whole college experience as well, as though Williams was the minor leagues of academia in general and Duncan Robinson's family was just being narrow-minded and straitjacketed in their thinking when they expressed their reservations about his transfer to Michigan.

The comparison to a sixth-grade Christmas pageant was a little ridiculous.

Just "a little"?

I can understand some of the resistance AAU coaches and high school coaches have against sending players to D3 schools.  I read Bob Hurley Sr.'s book and his experience with some of his players going to Ramapo for a couple years just to end up with a bunch of debt and no degree.

If Ramapo was indicative of the whole, Hurley's comments would be a plausible criticism. But D3 is the NCAA's largest division by far, with 440 members and a lot more diversity in its ranks than you see in D1 or D2. And, while I don't have the facts and figures in front of me to prove it, I'm willing to bet that the graduation rate for D3 men's basketball players is a lot higher than it is for their D1 counterparts.

[WUPHF]

David Waldstein promoted his story on Duncan Robinson with a ridiculous Tweet.



Basketball-wise, David Waldstein is the rough equivalent of my three-year old shooting on his Little Tikes basketball hoop, in the backyard...