Top 25 talk

[Gregory Sager]

A "chap"? Wow, that's a stilted way to refer to somebody even in a formal print article. On Twitter it's beyond goofy and an invitation to open ridicule.

I doubt that even Oxbridge types refer to men as "chaps" anymore. The only place you're likely to see that word is on a cattle ranch or in a leather bar.

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

You're really stretching to find an insult in that tweet or that article.

[Pat Coleman]

If there's a general-interest publication you could count on to be stilted and formal, though, wouldn't it be that one?

[ElRetornodelEspencio]

The implication is that those guys may not have had much effect against the eventual national champ of that year. The ESPN broadcast of that title game is on our 1982 NCAA Tournament page.

http://www.d3hoops.com/archives/men/1982

Quite right. I can't believe all these so-called experts here that have so much shade to throw at me didn't know who Pete Metzelaars is. I assume the only D3 basketball champion to play in the championship of a major US sport. One of the best players in D3 history. Maybe the best ever center.

This board isn't going to live this one down for a long time. You all just got exposed.

Whoa. Back off, Spence.

I'm sorry, this is uncalled for. You have no right to say this to me. Whatever you thikn of me, I don't try to tell people what to say or do. I give my unvarnished opinion of what they do and say, but I will and have defended the right of anyone to say it.

Hopefully Pat will let this go through htis time rather than editorializing.

I have a lot of disagreements about the Metzelaars thing but it's pretty obvious you're wrong and backpedaling with your condescending demand. Anyone can watch the video and see the dude was unstoppable even by a team with talent and height and athleticism. Still had no chance.

But standing up for myself against bullying like this is a lot more important, really.

(FYI, I've probably forgotten more about Jeff Gibbs' time in the OAC than you ever knew. One thing I haven't forgotten is that he didn't always guard the other team's 5 man, specifically because of his height. Weird that your example that's supposed to prove me wrong and catch me out was that one.)

[Gregory Sager]

Sure, if it's the NYT itself. But on a tweet?

You're really stretching to find an insult in that tweet or that article.

Maybe we should've talked about the bad shooting background in the Twitter pic.

[y_jack_lok]

Speaking of Duncan Robinson, there was a story in yesterday's New York Times about him:

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/02/sports/ncaabasketball/duncan-robinson-michigan-williams.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share&_r=0

(Warning: The author's condescension towards D3 just oozes off of the page.)

Read the article. Sure, a few things seemed a bit dismissive of D3, but it didn't strike me as condescension oozing off the page.

I was amused by this paragraph: "If that happens, it is believed Robinson will be the first player from Williams College to play in the league. There were two players from William & Mary in the N.B.A., and two from William Paterson University. But according to the Basketball Reference website, no one from Williams College has made it."

It's as though any school with "William" in it's name must be D3 even though William & Mary isn't.

[Pat Coleman]

Hopefully Pat will let this go through htis time rather than editorializing.

Considering you significantly toned down your post on the second try, yes.

[iwumichigander]

The implication is that those guys may not have had much effect against the eventual national champ of that year. The ESPN broadcast of that title game is on our 1982 NCAA Tournament page.

http://www.d3hoops.com/archives/men/1982

Quite right. I can't believe all these so-called experts here that have so much shade to throw at me didn't know who Pete Metzelaars is. I assume the only D3 basketball champion to play in the championship of a major US sport. One of the best players in D3 history. Maybe the best ever center.

This board isn't going to live this one down for a long time. You all just got exposed.

Whoa. Back off, Spence.

I'm sorry, this is uncalled for. You have no right to say this to me. Whatever you thikn of me, I don't try to tell people what to say or do. I give my unvarnished opinion of what they do and say, but I will and have defended the right of anyone to say it.

Hopefully Pat will let this go through htis time rather than editorializing.

I have a lot of disagreements about the Metzelaars thing but it's pretty obvious you're wrong and backpedaling with your condescending demand. Anyone can watch the video and see the dude was unstoppable even by a team with talent and height and athleticism. Still had no chance.

But standing up for myself against bullying like this is a lot more important, really.

(FYI, I've probably forgotten more about Jeff Gibbs' time in the OAC than you ever knew. One thing I haven't forgotten is that he didn't always guard the other team's 5 man, specifically because of his height. Weird that your example that's supposed to prove me wrong and catch me out was that one.)

Scrolling, scrolling, still scrolling

[Pat Coleman]

Sager has heard of Metzelaars as a basketball player before this conversation, in case there was any doubt. Doesn't include the seven years of posting before the current board database.

Like Metzelaars, Gibbs was a tight end in college. And also like the big Dutchman from Wabash, Gibbs led his basketball team to a D3 national title. Both Metzelaars and Gibbs were named tourney MVP in the process of leading their respective teams to the Walnut and Bronze.

Well, let me start off by saying that there's a lot of D3 stars that I wish I had seen, but never did: Pete Metzelaars, Ron Stewart, Leroy Witherspoon, Shannon Lilly, Bill Bessoir, Dick Hempy, Greg Grant, Scott Tedder, Lamont Strothers, T.J. Van Wie, Merrill Brunson, Dave Jannuzzi, Devean George, Horace Jenkins, Andy Panko, and Jeff Gibbs being the guys who immediately come to mind.

[smedindy]

As a Wabash grad, I'm enamored with that 1982 team, and Pete & Barb Metzelaars. He's probably the best tight end Wabash ever had, for sure. And he was a very solid D3 hoops player, but his game wasn't nuanced. That Wabash team had many ways to beat you besides just lobbing the ball into Pete. They started 5-4 but Mac Petty and the AD knew they had a great team and wanted to play tough competition in the early season to get them ready for the tourney.

The freshmen on the 1982 team overlapped with me - as they were seniors when I was a freshman. I was fraternity brothers with Pete's freshman backup.

Pete reminded me of Artis Gilmore (in a D-3 frame) -  an inside force on the boards and in the paint. Obviously an excellent player, but unequivocally calling him the best center ever in D-3 is a little much without really doing a deep dive into the other contenders.

That Wabash team was our fifth 'Wonder Five" - which is a great nickname for great teams from back in the day. The others were the "World Champions" in 1908, the 1917 team led by Homer Stonebraker (Wingate, IN, salute!) , the 1922 "National Champs", and the 1925 team which had one loss - to Wisconsin.

[Gregory Sager]

The implication is that those guys may not have had much effect against the eventual national champ of that year. The ESPN broadcast of that title game is on our 1982 NCAA Tournament page.

http://www.d3hoops.com/archives/men/1982

Quite right. I can't believe all these so-called experts here that have so much shade to throw at me didn't know who Pete Metzelaars is. I assume the only D3 basketball champion to play in the championship of a major US sport. One of the best players in D3 history. Maybe the best ever center.

This board isn't going to live this one down for a long time. You all just got exposed.

Whoa. Back off, Spence.

I'm sorry, this is uncalled for. You have no right to say this to me. Whatever you thikn of me, I don't try to tell people what to say or do. I give my unvarnished opinion of what they do and say, but I will and have defended the right of anyone to say it.

I have every right to call you out on something when you incorrectly claim that I "got exposed."

And you're not sorry, either.

Hopefully Pat will let this go through htis time rather than editorializing.

I have a lot of disagreements about the Metzelaars thing but it's pretty obvious you're wrong and backpedaling with your condescending demand.

Au contraire. You gleefully claimed that you had just administered a facial to the entire room with your "Nyah, nyah, didn't mention Metzelaars!" rant. I called you out on it. That's all. No backpedaling.

Anyone can watch the video and see the dude was unstoppable even by a team with talent and height and athleticism. Still had no chance.

And anyone can completely disagree with your opinion on this, as I do, and that will simply be the end of it. Why? Because we give our unvarnished opinions of what you do and say, but we will and have defended the right of you to say it.

But standing up for myself against bullying like this is a lot more important, really.

Pot, meet kettle.

(FYI, I've probably forgotten more about Jeff Gibbs' time in the OAC than you ever knew. One thing I haven't forgotten is that he didn't always guard the other team's 5 man, specifically because of his height. Weird that your example that's supposed to prove me wrong and catch me out was that one.)

Fine. I'll give you that one, since you're an OAC guy. But there's plenty of other examples, such as the '15 UWSP team.

[Gregory Sager]

Sager has heard of Metzelaars as a basketball player before this conversation, in case there was any doubt. Doesn't include the seven years of posting before the current board database.

Like Metzelaars, Gibbs was a tight end in college. And also like the big Dutchman from Wabash, Gibbs led his basketball team to a D3 national title. Both Metzelaars and Gibbs were named tourney MVP in the process of leading their respective teams to the Walnut and Bronze.

Well, let me start off by saying that there's a lot of D3 stars that I wish I had seen, but never did: Pete Metzelaars, Ron Stewart, Leroy Witherspoon, Shannon Lilly, Bill Bessoir, Dick Hempy, Greg Grant, Scott Tedder, Lamont Strothers, T.J. Van Wie, Merrill Brunson, Dave Jannuzzi, Devean George, Horace Jenkins, Andy Panko, and Jeff Gibbs being the guys who immediately come to mind.

Thanks, Pat. What I should add is that the '09 post was before the link to the '82 championship game was made available ... and I've since seen archived footage of Jenkins and George as well.

I'd suggest that somebody set up a "D3 Classic Network" in their spare hours, but it'd probably be immediately pointed out to me that I seem to have more spare hours than anybody else around here.

[smedindy]

Also, I think most all of the long-time posters know the great D3 players and teams of the past.

Frankly, it takes me a while to recall any player from 15-20 years ago unless it was a team I followed greatly. When I was a kid, I used to know all of the players for the top ranked teams in D-1, mainly by reading the box scores. Not now, since I have lots of gunk in my brain.

[AO]

I can understand some of the resistance AAU coaches and high school coaches have against sending players to D3 schools.  I read Bob Hurley Sr.'s book and his experience with some of his players going to Ramapo for a couple years just to end up with a bunch of debt and no degree.

If Ramapo was indicative of the whole, Hurley's comments would be a plausible criticism. But D3 is the NCAA's largest division by far, with 440 members and a lot more diversity in its ranks than you see in D1 or D2. And, while I don't have the facts and figures in front of me to prove it, I'm willing to bet that the graduation rate for D3 men's basketball players is a lot higher than it is for their D1 counterparts.

I can't find the reference right now, so I'll give Hurley the benefit of the doubt and say it was a specific criticism of Ramapo and not D3 as a whole. 

[Gregory Sager]

While I haven't read Hurley's book I would guess that it probably was directed specifically at Ramapo, since it wouldn't make much sense for a still-active high-school basketball coach to indict all of D3 like that. While I don't claim to know all that much about Hurley or his coaching career at St. Anthony HS other than the stray article I've read here and there (that usually spends as much or more time talking about his sons), I have to think that he's had St. Anthony players go on to other D3 schools where they were successful student-athletes.