Top 25 talk

[sac]

#2 Whitman 91  #6 Whitworth 75

Whitman led comfortably pretty much the whole way.

[gordonmann]

CBS news is now projecting that Whitman will win the Northwest Conference.

CBS projects Whitman will receive the Conference's top seed in the playoffs, an NCAA tournament birth and the NWC's 15 electoral votes.

[HOPEful]

I don't think it's worth worrying too much about teams that get single votes...

Noted. And I agree completely. One vote in Week 8 is as close to meaningless as it gets in the grand scheme of things. Still thought it was worth bringing up.

If I were to wager a guess, the vote was going to the 1st place team in the GNAC, regardless of their record or resume.  Albertus Magnus is 135th according to Massey. They are #24 in the Northeast Region according to Knightslappy's regional ranking data (http://detroitjockcity.com/division-iii-mens-basketball-regional-rankings-data/)... It's a very seemingly small thing, but if voters put teams on ballots that don' t belong there based on regional bias and just because they can, doesn't it (if even a very minimal amount) reduce the integrity of the entire poll?

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I don't think it's worth worrying too much about teams that get single votes...

Noted. And I agree completely. One vote in Week 8 is as close to meaningless as it gets in the grand scheme of things. Still thought it was worth bringing up.

If I were to wager a guess, the vote was going to the 1st place team in the GNAC, regardless of their record or resume.  Albertus Magnus is 135th according to Massey. They are #24 in the Northeast Region according to Knightslappy's regional ranking data (http://detroitjockcity.com/division-iii-mens-basketball-regional-rankings-data/)... It's a very seemingly small thing, but if voters put teams on ballots that don' t belong there based on regional bias and just because they can, doesn't it (if even a very minimal amount) reduce the integrity of the entire poll?

You don't think that maybe AMC has a track record and last year was the only time they were "down" in the last five or so? Or maybe the voter has seen them and liked what they saw?

[gordonmann]

It's a very seemingly small thing, but if voters put teams on ballots that don' t belong there based on regional bias and just because they can, doesn't it (if even a very minimal amount) reduce the integrity of the entire poll?

No, I don't think so.

These types of polls are subjective by nature. We're asking top 25 people to select the 25 teams they think are best. It's not a question with an objectively right answer or even one where the person can report their own behavior (like political polls that ask the respondent whom they're voting for). Subjectivity doesn't detract from the poll's integrity in my mind.

We protect against regional bias by balancing the panel by region and conference, though obviously not every  conference is represented. So one person can't get a team into the Top 25 based on their own bias, even if they inexplicably voted them No. 1.

I have access to everyone's ballots, and I've promised all the voters that their votes will be kept confidential, unless they want to release them (like Dave does). So I won't say too much about who voted for Albertus Magnus.

All I'll say is that sometimes the odd vote comes from the type of voter you can predict (like someone from the same conference or region) and sometimes it doesn't. So you shouldn't assume that those random votes are because of geographic bias.

[sac]

I'm sure HOPEful saw the same game I did back in December.

Olivet 79  J&W 78

The fact that J&W has beaten Albertus Magnus (in OT 75-70) and that J&W has gone back East and is smoking much of the competition that Albertus Magnus is also playing doesn't help a person in the MidWest feel that great about that particular vote.

.....and I understand all the odd results happen arguments, yada yada yada.

[KnightSlappy]

It's one point out of 8,125 points.

[Greek Tragedy]

CBS news is now projecting that Whitman will win the Northwest Conference.

CBS projects Whitman will receive the Conference's top seed in the playoffs, an NCAA tournament birth and the NWC's 15 electoral votes.

+1 I didn't realize the NWC got that many electoral votes.

[HOPEful]

It's one point out of 8,125 points.

Again. Not about the point. The point in of itself is as close to meaningless as you can get. More about the overall accountability and integrity of the process.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

It's one point out of 8,125 points.

Again. Not about the point. The point in of itself is as close to meaningless as you can get. More about the overall accountability and integrity of the process.

But it's still about subjectivity.  I didn't vote for Susquehanna at all.  I don't see what voters see in them.  I've watched a couple of their games and examined their schedule and results and I just don't see it.  I'd pick them ahead of Albertus Magnus for sure, but if they can get 323 votes, I don't think its a stretch that someone would give Albertus one.  I don't think Susquehanna is that much better.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

It's one point out of 8,125 points.

Again. Not about the point. The point in of itself is as close to meaningless as you can get. More about the overall accountability and integrity of the process.

Not sure you can accuse one single vote going to a team as then a problem with integrity. I think that is a major reach. If someone voted Albertus Magnus #1 and refused to change that vote... then you have an argument. But not a single 25th vote... and especially not in a time when parity is so strong there are 50 or teams being considered on a weekly basis.

I am working on the history of the Top 25... on the men's side so far the lowest number of teams to ever be ranked is less than 40... there are other years it is well over 50. Just some perspective.

Please don't argue integrity when arguing a single point amongst 8100+. If you see others being swayed, you'd maybe have an argument... but no one has been.

[Ralph Turner]

It's one point out of 8,125 points.

Again. Not about the point. The point in of itself is as close to meaningless as you can get. More about the overall accountability and integrity of the process.

Not sure you can accuse one single vote going to a team as then a problem with integrity. I think that is a major reach. If someone voted Albertus Magnus #1 and refused to change that vote... then you have an argument. But not a single 25th vote... and especially not in a time when parity is so strong there are 50 or teams being considered on a weekly basis.

I am working on the history of the Top 25... on the men's side so far the lowest number of teams to ever be ranked is less than 40... there are other years it is well over 50. Just some perspective.

Please don't argue integrity when arguing a single point amongst 8100+. If you see others being swayed, you'd maybe have an argument... but no one has been.

I have reviewed an posted on the Football Boards about the number of teams receiving votes on that poll.

The trend in football is to tighten up about Week #9 and Week #10.  Then it increases again.  Since basketball has about 60% more teams participating, 50 teams receiving votes is not that unusual.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

It's one point out of 8,125 points.

Again. Not about the point. The point in of itself is as close to meaningless as you can get. More about the overall accountability and integrity of the process.

Not sure you can accuse one single vote going to a team as then a problem with integrity. I think that is a major reach. If someone voted Albertus Magnus #1 and refused to change that vote... then you have an argument. But not a single 25th vote... and especially not in a time when parity is so strong there are 50 or teams being considered on a weekly basis.

I am working on the history of the Top 25... on the men's side so far the lowest number of teams to ever be ranked is less than 40... there are other years it is well over 50. Just some perspective.

Please don't argue integrity when arguing a single point amongst 8100+. If you see others being swayed, you'd maybe have an argument... but no one has been.

I have reviewed an posted on the Football Boards about the number of teams receiving votes on that poll.

The trend in football is to tighten up about Week #9 and Week #10.  Then it increases again.  Since basketball has about 60% more teams participating, 50 teams receiving votes is not that unusual.

I was giving a rough estimate since I don't have the complete history finished. I was just surprised one year when it was below 40.

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (So Far)

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	613	Babson	17-1	def. Clark, 90-81; 01/28 vs. Emerson
#2	610	Whitman	18-0	won at #6 Whitworth, 91-75; 01/28 vs. Willamette
#3	555	Christopher Newport	16-2	def. #12 Salisbury, 55-53; 01/28 vs. Penn State-Harrisburg
#4	531	Tufts	15-2	01/26 vs. Newbury; 01/28 at Bates
#5	524	UW-River Falls	17-1	def. UW-Stout, 70-58; 01/28 at UW-Stevens Point
#6	489	Whitworth	15-3	LOST to #2 Whitman, 75-91; 01/27 vs. Willamette
#7	457	Rochester	15-1	01/27 vs. New York University; 01/29 vs. Brandeis
#8	423	Washington U.	13-3	01/27 at Carnegie Mellon; 01/29 at Case Western Reserve
#9	420	Denison	17-1	def. Oberlin, 89-73; 01/28 vs. Wittenberg
#10	373	Ramapo	18-1	won at York (N.Y.), 97-63; def. Montclair State, 80-68; 01/28 at Kean
#11	323	Susquehanna	16-2	won at Catholic, 89-83; 01/28 at Moravian
#12	300	Salisbury	14-4	LOST at #3 Christopher Newport, 53-55; 01/28 vs. Mary Washington
#13	296	St. Norbert	13-3	won at Lawrence, 77-57; 01/28 vs. Cornell
#14	282	Amherst	13-4	def. Williams, 72-64; 01/28 vs. Trinity (Conn.)
#15	250	Marietta	14-4	def. Otterbein, 94-75; 01/28 vs. Baldwin Wallace
#16	240	Augustana	15-3	def. Elmhurst, 87-76; 01/28 at Carthage
#17	187	UW-Eau Claire	14-4	def. UW-Platteville, 83-58; 01/28 at UW-Oshkosh
#18	181	Claremont-Mudd-Scripps	13-1	01/26 vs. La Verne; 01/28 at Pomona-Pitzer
#19	177	Benedictine	14-4	def. Milwaukee Engineering, 87-74; won at Rockford, 106-76; 01/28 at Lakeland
#20	148	New Jersey City	16-3	def. William Paterson, 70-60; 01/28 at TCNJ
#21	144	Neumann	17-1	won at Keystone, 99-76; 01/28 vs. Gwynedd Mercy
#22	142	Middlebury	14-3	def. Lyndon State, 100-90; 01/28 vs. Hamilton
#23	117	North Park	14-4	def. Illinois Wesleyan, 96-86; 01/28 at Elmhurst
#24	101	UW-Whitewater	15-3	def. UW-Stevens Point, 80-74; 01/28 at UW-La Crosse
#25	53	Wesleyan	15-4	01/28 at Connecticut College

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	37	Swarthmore	14-3	01/26 at Washington College; 01/28 vs. Gettysburg
#27	36	Lycoming	16-3	LOST to Messiah, 80-91; 01/28 vs. Widener
#28	29	Hope	14-4	won at Calvin, 87-67; 01/28 vs. Albion
#29	24	Hardin-Simmons	14-4	01/26 at Mary Hardin-Baylor; 01/28 at Concordia (Texas)
#30	15	Eastern Connecticut	13-6	LOST at Keene State, 92-99; 01/28 vs. Rhode Island College
T#31	11	Guilford	15-3	won at Lynchburg, 72-60; 01/28 vs. Virginia Wesleyan
T#31	11	Hanover	14-3	LOST to Rose-Hulman, 68-73; 01/28 vs. Defiance
T#33	8	Brockport	15-3	def. Fredonia, 97-61; 01/27 at Oswego State; 01/28 at Cortland
T#33	8	Ripon	13-3	def. Beloit, 70-58; 01/28 vs. Illinois College
T#33	8	St. Lawrence	14-3	LOST at Skidmore, 66-83; 01/27 vs. RPI; 01/28 vs. Union
T#36	1	Albertus Magnus	14-3	def. Rivier, 93-76; 01/28 at St. Joseph's (Maine)
T#36	1	Randolph-Macon	13-5	won at Virginia Wesleyan, 76-57; 01/28 vs. Washington and Lee

[irapthor]

For the record, I am a Top 25 voter (and have been for 15 years now)...While I did not vote for Albertus, I did consider them. NJCU played them back in December and despite our convincing win, there was just something about the Falcons that made me keep an eye on them...I don't think they were fully healthy back then...They appear to be now and are on a nice little run...Not enough to crack my 25 teams, but at least enough to be among the next 15-20 teams I'm keeping an eye on.