Top 25 talk

[Greek Tragedy]

Umm. Not really sure to put this, but it's interesting to know that in the Principia v Blackburn game, Principia's starters each played the whole game. Not one bench player even logged a second of floor time.

[John Gleich]

Wow...

#2 Augie loses by 19 to IWU
#3 River Falls loses by 25 to UWSP (at home, after leading 15-2)
#6 Lycoming loses by 10 to Leb Valley
#7 Oshkosh loses by 26 to #5 Whitewater (at home)

Happy New Year I guess

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (So Far)

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	625	Whitman	11-0	01/05 vs. Pacific; 01/06 vs. Lewis and Clark
#2	599	Augustana	10-2	LOST at Illinois Wesleyan, 53-72; 01/06 vs. Millikin
#3	516	UW-River Falls	9-2	LOST to UW-Stevens Point, 48-73; 01/06 at #5 UW-Whitewater
#4	514	Middlebury	7-2	LOST to #12 Swarthmore, 75-91; 01/05 at Connecticut College; 01/06 at #14 Wesleyan
#5	500	UW-Whitewater	11-1	won at #7 UW-Oshkosh, 83-57; 01/06 vs. #3 UW-River Falls
#6	493	Lycoming	13-1	LOST at Lebanon Valley, 71-81; 01/06 vs. Stevenson
#7	447	UW-Oshkosh	10-2	LOST to #5 UW-Whitewater, 57-83; 01/06 at UW-La Crosse
#8	392	Whitworth	10-1	01/05 vs. Lewis and Clark; 01/06 vs. Pacific
#9	379	Ohio Wesleyan	10-2	def. Denison, 89-70; 01/06 vs. Wooster
#10	370	Washington U.	9-2	01/06 vs. Chicago
#11	362	Williams	9-2	01/05 at #14 Wesleyan; 01/06 at Connecticut College
#12	326	Swarthmore	10-1	won at #4 Middlebury, 91-75; 01/06 vs. Gettysburg
#13	320	York (Pa.)	12-0	won at Salisbury, 84-81; 01/06 at Southern Virginia
#14	310	Wesleyan	9-1	01/05 vs. #11 Williams; 01/06 vs. #4 Middlebury
#15	259	MIT	11-1	won at WPI, 94-58; 01/06 vs. Coast Guard
#16	206	St. John's	9-1	won at Concordia-Moorhead, 72-55; 01/06 vs. St. Mary's (Minn.)
#17	203	Wittenberg	12-0	won at Kenyon, 87-67; 01/06 vs. Hiram
#18	200	Wartburg	10-2	def. Central, 80-65; 01/06 at Coe
#19	143	Ramapo	10-3	def. Rutgers-Camden, 93-74; 01/06 at TCNJ
#20	125	New Jersey City	10-2	LOST to Montclair State, 66-76; 01/06 at Rowan
#21	114	Nichols	9-1	def. Southern Maine, 86-71; 01/04 at University of New England; 01/06 vs. Western New England
#22	111	Rochester	9-2	def. Rochester Tech, 69-49; 01/06 at #37 Emory
#23	83	Juniata	12-0	won at Lancaster Bible, 57-54; 01/06 at Catholic
#24	80	Hamilton	10-0	01/05 vs. Wells; 01/07 at Trinity (Conn.)
#25	67	Marietta	9-3	def. Muskingum, 104-86; 01/06 vs. Ohio Northern

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	65	Hanover	8-4	LOST to Rose-Hulman, 69-71; 01/06 at Manchester
#27	46	Albright	11-1	won at Hood, 106-93; 01/06 vs. Lebanon Valley
#28	39	Christopher Newport	10-2	def. Penn State-Harrisburg, 73-63; 01/06 at Marymount
#29	35	Amherst	7-3	LOST to T#33 Eastern Connecticut, 92-95; 01/05 at Trinity (Conn.)
#30	34	Nebraska Wesleyan	11-1	LOST to Buena Vista, 75-91; 01/06 vs. Luther
#31	32	Baldwin Wallace	10-2	def. Mount Union, 96-93; 01/06 at Wilmington
#32	29	Skidmore	6-2	01/05 vs. RPI; 01/06 at Union
T#33	19	Eastern Connecticut	10-2	won at #29 Amherst, 95-92; 01/06 at Mass-Boston
T#33	19	Franklin and Marshall	10-1	01/06 vs. McDaniel
T#33	19	John Carroll	10-2	won at Heidelberg, 100-94; 01/06 vs. Capital
#36	16	St. Norbert	10-2	def. Beloit, 73-57; 01/06 vs. Grinnell
#37	10	Emory	9-2	won at Oglethorpe, 88-82; 01/06 vs. #22 Rochester
#38	8	UW-Platteville	11-1	won at UW-Stout, 73-54; 01/06 vs. UW-Eau Claire
T#39	3	Bethel	8-3	LOST to St. Olaf, 82-83
T#39	3	North Central (Ill.)	8-4	def. Carthage, 77-67; 01/06 at Carroll
#41	2	Westminster (Pa.)	9-2	LOST at Thomas More, 65-72; 01/06 vs. Waynesburg
T#42	1	Gwynedd Mercy	9-1	01/06 at Immaculata
T#42	1	Salem State	9-3	01/06 at Worcester State

[y_jack_lok]

Wow...

#2 Augie loses by 19 to IWU
#3 River Falls loses by 25 to UWSP (at home, after leading 15-2)
#6 Lycoming loses by 10 to Leb Valley
#7 Oshkosh loses by 26 to #5 Whitewater (at home)

Happy New Year I guess

This is what makes conference play so fascinating.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

The holidays brought us many presents in Division III basketball. From upsets to impressive performances, many teams made an impression. As a result, there is plenty to recap as Hoopsville returns to the air after the holiday break.

Join Dave as he talks to guests around the country and recaps an incredible few weeks - or tries to recap. From an assistant coach who made a life saving decision, a women's coach who has been fighting cancer without missing time with his team, to coaches around the country who have teams that have many wondering ... just how good are they?

With the midseason return of Hoopsville comes with it some of the more structured aspects of the show. For starters, Thursday nights are dedicated primarily to the East, Mid-Atlantic, Great Lakes, and West Regions for guests. Tonight also sees the season debut of the "WBCA Center Court" which is a segment that allows viewers to learn more about coaches and what they are involved in outside of basketball.

Hoopsville is presented by D3hoops.com and airs from the WBCA/NABC Studio. You can watch the show LIVE starting at 7pm ET right here: http://bit.ly/2CoVJhv.

You can also send your questions to the show and have them featured on the Hoopsville Mailbag segment. Email them to hoopsville@d3hoops.com.

Guests include (in order of appearance):
- Justin Smith, Dubuque women's assistant coach
- Brian Newhall, Occidental men's coach
- Guy Rancourt, No. 6 Lycoming men's coach
- Matt Dempsey, Merchant Marine women's coach (WBCA Center Court)
- Jeff Hans, No. 8 Thomas More women's coach
- Joe Burke, Skidmore men's coach

You can also tune into the podcast(s) after the show has aired:
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Don't forget you can always interact with us:
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[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

It is a little late by now, but figured some might be interested... here is my Top 25 ballot for this week: http://bit.ly/2lX4PvX

Random thoughts as I tried to get that done before things got too crazy this week...

[AndOne]

Don't you have to wonder how 7-2 Midflebury got to be the #4 team in the country? Those 7 wins are several fewer than many teams that also have only 2 losses. Were the 7 wins against powerhouse teams? If not, what's the rationale that merits a #4 ranking? Is this team being bolstered by it's past results/reputation? If not, the question of what makes them the 4th best team in the country appears to be a valid one. 

[deiscanton]

Middlebury's 2nd loss of the season to Swarthmore is not yet factored in the rankings.  That loss will be taken into account in next week's poll, along with all of the other top 25 losses from January 2 to January 7, 2018.  Middlebury only had 1 loss at the time of the current published rankings, and the Panthers started the season as the preseason #2 from their Elite 8 run in the NCAAs last season.

There have been 6 losses among the top 25 so far this week, and 5 losses among the teams in the others receiving votes category, and the NESCAC and UAA still have to start conference play before the next top 25 poll gets voted on.

As Dave McHugh points out constantly, this season we have a lot of good teams, but maybe not a lot of great teams.  Top 25 teams taking losses every week is probably going to be the new norm.  The postseason will probably settle the true rankings.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I argue with myself every week... who really is the number four team in the country?

I have said in my blog a few times... there are teams I have, say, tenth, that I rather have maybe 17th... but I can't leave 7 spot empty.

And while I realize people may not like this answer: in the preseason and start of the year a voter felt Middlebury was a top 10 squad... what have they done to disprove that assertion? Yes, if you are voting on them based on nothing but seven wins over okay schools (BTW, Skidmore is a solid win and Endicott isn't something to dismiss) than it might be harder to say they are 4th. However, if a voter already feels they were 4th, Middlebury also hasn't had anything to say otherwise. Not all votes are simplistic.

I will also say, I wanted to move Middlebury as I did Augustana, Oshkosh, WashU, etc... but to where? I still think those teams are better than OWU, UWRF, St. John's, Williams, etc. Someone has to be slotted into each spot on the ballot.

And again... their second loss wasn't a factor in the poll this week.

[AndOne]

Thanks to deiscanton and Dave for the above.

I guess my question, even before the 2nd loss, is why is a team with only 7 wins ranked as high as #4 when, at the same time, there were several teams with 8, 9, 10, or 11 wins. Were those 7 wins against such high quality teams that they would carry more weight than teams with up to 4 more wins than Middlebury? If a team with, lets say, 10 wins at the same time Middlebury has only 7, and that team is good enough to be ranked 7th or 8th, it's hard to understand how they couldn't be ranked higher than a team with 3 less wins. Did Middlebury's 7 wins come against teams that, combined, were that much better than the 10 teams that others had beaten? And no, I am not picking on Mid here. Just using them as an example as I noticed they had so many fewer wins. Again, a team with 7 wins is better than a team with 10 or 11? 
Just hard to understand unless the 10-11 win teams had played all their games against teams with only 1 or 2 wins. That's all I'm asking. 

[y_jack_lok]

I think Dave does a great job of explaining his own thinking about his own ballot. But to truly understand why Middlebury is ranked #4 at this point would require the other 24 people who are in on the balloting to go to the trouble to do what Dave does -- and that's not likely to happen. I've toyed with the idea of making up my own Top 25, only to realize I don't know enough to do an adequate job. So I've decided to respect the "pros" who do this for us. It gives us something to mull over and wonder what the rankings will look like next week after another week of games. That's the fun part for me.

[Greek Tragedy]

There's a preseason poll. Everyone has zero wins and losses to start. Middlebury was likely ranked ahead of those other teams that now have 9-11 wins.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I think Dave does a great job of explaining his own thinking about his own ballot. But to truly understand why Middlebury is ranked #4 at this point would require the other 24 people who are in on the balloting to go to the trouble to do what Dave does -- and that's not likely to happen. I've toyed with the idea of making up my own Top 25, only to realize I don't know enough to do an adequate job. So I've decided to respect the "pros" who do this for us. It gives us something to mull over and wonder what the rankings will look like next week after another week of games. That's the fun part for me.

Thanks. Yeah. I only know of two others who occasionally post their ballots. I wouldn't expect the entire group to do it. There is a lot of time required. Since I am technically jobless right now, I (sadly) have the time to do it.

There's a preseason poll. Everyone has zero wins and losses to start. Middlebury was likely ranked ahead of those other teams that now have 9-11 wins.

Yes... basically what I am trying to say. I had Middlebury higher than others and not much has changed my mind about it especially when nearly everyone has taken losses this season.

AndOne - I don't want to be negative or disrespectful, but many people tend to look at these things though a vacuum... which is a common thing to say. Not a big deal, but I think it makes a difference.

I'll start with this: a team's ranking position is never based on just itself. It is based on all the teams around them and teams being consider not only in the Top 25 but the 40 or so teams being consider by a voter in total (I think my number is 40+ most weeks). So, Middlebury's resume isn't being looked at just based on themselves or a couple of teams, but via a number of teams. Same thing happens in regional rankings and such.

I am not necessarily a voter who dismisses a team for not playing as many games as some one else. Sometimes playing more or less than others can hurt or help. One loss in five games versus one loss in nine will be a difference to be sure. However, there are other elements to consider and one of them I know with Middlebury was the reasons for a long lay-off during December. Just because they can't play as many games at this current moment isn't something I think I should down-grade them for over a team who happens to be able to play more. Ultimately, all teams are going to play within one to three games of each other, so I don't think it should be as big a factor earlier in the season. Kind of like a team who jam-packs the start of the season with five games in ten days. Sure, it gives me more info, but they aren't necessarily better because of ten games than the team who played five.

If that makes sense.

Again, I don't disagree that Middlebury's seven wins aren't spectacular, but they aren't horrible either. They have a better WL% of their opponents than a lot of teams I have been considering even adding to my ballot (read my blog). However, I go back to this: in the preseason, I felt Middlebury was a Top 10 program. Despite loss to York (which I think speaks more about York than Middlebury), they are still a Top 10 team to some degree. I will most likely downgrade them next week, but nothing else on their schedule has disproven my feeling they are in the top part of the poll.

Nearly everyone are losing games and I have said many times - I do not expect anyone to be undefeated by the end of the regular season. With that mentality, I am not going to necessarily over-react to any losses. The more that pile up, sure I going to react more. One here and there, not going to go crazy ... mainly because everyone are taking losses.

Another thought: I only think there are two or three teams which are Top 10 worthy to begin with. I feel more comfortable if Middlebury was maybe 11th or 12th. However, I only have three I think should be in the Top 10. I have to fill those slots in and I don't necessarily think there are a lot of teams better than Middlebury right now.

I am not counting their last loss to Swarthmore in this conversation because I think that will only muddy the waters. I won't reconsider Middlebury's position in the poll until Sunday night. Same reason as the one given to the fan wondering if Ramapo would stay in the Top 25 after Vegas. So many things depend on other teams. Wednesday night is a great example with how many losses took place in the Top 10 and the Top 25 (and outside). So Middlebury lost to Swarthmore, but Oshkosh, Augustana, and others have already lost and we still have the weekend to go. All of those results affect Middlebury's case as well.

I realize Middlebury is just the team to use as an example. One can take my thoughts and expand them to a lot of teams, though the exact nature of the argument would change with each team.

The part I really want to emphasize... there are a lot of teams probably higher than they would be in any "normal" year of say three to five years ago. We had more "premiere" and "great" teams than we have now. That isn't a knock, we just have more talent spread around and that means a lot of good teams. It results in changing the mentality a bit of what a Top 10 team really indicates, possibly.

[nescac1]

This year seems like one of the toughest ever for folks doing these ballots.  Number one is a no-brainer (although even they have looked vulnerable), if Whitewater beats River Falls, they are probably a no-brainer for number two.  But with a sweep of the remaining games this week, I think you could put the next 15 teams in ANY order and it would be totally defensible.  That's crazy for this point of the season, but a lot of teams have head-scratchingly inconsistent results ... if Wesleyan sweeps Williams and Midd this weekend (a very tall order) to add to their prior wins at Williams and over Nichols, I'd go with them at number three, if not, I'd go with York, personally, because they are undefeated with two big-time wins.  Obviously some of this will be answered by results, but man, it sure does seem like a year where almost any result involving any two teams in the top 25 (and in many cases teams outside the top 25) would not be much of a surprise at all, and in many cases will just be match-up dependent.  As a result, I have a feeling the teams that end up in the Final Four may include some major surprises ...

[Smitty Oom]

This year seems like one of the toughest ever for folks doing these ballots.  Number one is a no-brainer (although even they have looked vulnerable), if Whitewater beats River Falls, they are probably a no-brainer for number two.  But with a sweep of the remaining games this week, I think you could put the next 15 teams in ANY order and it would be totally defensible.  That's crazy for this point of the season, but a lot of teams have head-scratchingly inconsistent results ... if Wesleyan sweeps Williams and Midd this weekend (a very tall order) to add to their prior wins at Williams and over Nichols, I'd go with them at number three, if not, I'd go with York, personally, because they are undefeated with two big-time wins.  Obviously some of this will be answered by results, but man, it sure does seem like a year where almost any result involving any two teams in the top 25 (and in many cases teams outside the top 25) would not be much of a surprise at all, and in many cases will just be match-up dependent.  As a result, I have a feeling the teams that end up in the Final Four may include some major surprises ...

I agree with a lot of this, nescac1! If yorkpa remains undfeated until next poll I think they should rise up the ranks. They have been so solid this year, can't ask them to do much more. Plus, they are the holder of The Belt^TM, so that should be a couple bonus points!

But mainly, March will be so great this year in D3 world. Will be fun to get some new blood to the final four... The MITs, St. John's, Yorks, OWU's...