Top 25 talk

[me]

The issue with this, of course, is "what is 'top 25 caliber'?"

Teams that could legitimately get Top 25 consideration/votes?

It's OK if there is subjectivity to it.  I don't think that gray area is as big/problematic as it might seem. 

I would love to see each region...that would be cool.

Sure it is. What is Williams, for example? They're probably like 60ish in Massey now.

There needs to be some objective definition of "top 25 caliber" for this to mean anything.

[Titan Q]

The issue with this, of course, is "what is 'top 25 caliber'?"

Teams that could legitimately get Top 25 consideration/votes?

It's OK if there is subjectivity to it.  I don't think that gray area is as big/problematic as it might seem. 

I would love to see each region...that would be cool.

Sure it is. What is Williams, for example? They're probably like 60ish in Massey now.

There needs to be some objective definition of "top 25 caliber" for this to mean anything.

"Top 25 Caliber" = a team that meets any of the following 3 criteria.

* In the current D3hoops.com Top 25 or ORV - http://www.d3hoops.com/top25/men/2017-18/week7

* In the current Massey top 25 - https://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?s=cb2018&sub=11620

* In the top 25 of KnightSlappy's D3 Efficiency Rating - http://tomaroonandgold.blogspot.com/p/division-iii-mens-basketball-efficiency.html

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

The issue with this, of course, is "what is 'top 25 caliber'?"

Teams that could legitimately get Top 25 consideration/votes?

It's OK if there is subjectivity to it.  I don't think that gray area is as big/problematic as it might seem. 

I would love to see each region...that would be cool.

Sure it is. What is Williams, for example? They're probably like 60ish in Massey now.

There needs to be some objective definition of "top 25 caliber" for this to mean anything.

"Top 25 Caliber" = a team that meets any of the following 3 criteria.

* In the current D3hoops.com Top 25 or ORV - http://www.d3hoops.com/top25/men/2017-18/week7

* In the current Massey Top 25 - https://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?s=cb2018&sub=11620

* In the top 25 of KnightSlappy's D3 Efficiency Rating - http://tomaroonandgold.blogspot.com/p/division-iii-mens-basketball-efficiency.html

The problem with Massey (for today anyways) is that it appears to only be updating on Mondays so no results from this week have factored in to the rankings yet.

[me]

Why does the D3 poll get more than 25 but not Massey or KS?

Really you should just use Massey and KS and leave the biased humans out of it. And 25 is too restrictive anyway, so the #26 team just isn't any good?

This is why computer rankings and algorithms exist. They can do this job better than humans, and not establish subjective thresholds needlessly. Something thresholding is useful, but more often it's a heuristic trade-off for the benefit of humans.

It's funny how people want to try to reinvent the wheel, but then complain about how the wheel that's already been invented doesn't work.

If you want to go down this road though you should establish buckets or clusters or some such to account for the actual difference in the teams in the rankings, rather than an ordinal which assumes the same amount of difference between 1 and 6 as between 41 and 46, which is almost certainly not true.

[me]

The issue with this, of course, is "what is 'top 25 caliber'?"

Teams that could legitimately get Top 25 consideration/votes?

It's OK if there is subjectivity to it.  I don't think that gray area is as big/problematic as it might seem. 

I would love to see each region...that would be cool.

Sure it is. What is Williams, for example? They're probably like 60ish in Massey now.

There needs to be some objective definition of "top 25 caliber" for this to mean anything.

"Top 25 Caliber" = a team that meets any of the following 3 criteria.

* In the current D3hoops.com Top 25 or ORV - http://www.d3hoops.com/top25/men/2017-18/week7

* In the current Massey Top 25 - https://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?s=cb2018&sub=11620

* In the top 25 of KnightSlappy's D3 Efficiency Rating - http://tomaroonandgold.blogspot.com/p/division-iii-mens-basketball-efficiency.html

The problem with Massey (for today anyways) is that it appears to only be updating on Mondays so no results from this week have factored in to the rankings yet.

There won't be a new poll today either. Is that a problem?

[Titan Q]

The issue with this, of course, is "what is 'top 25 caliber'?"

Teams that could legitimately get Top 25 consideration/votes?

It's OK if there is subjectivity to it.  I don't think that gray area is as big/problematic as it might seem. 

I would love to see each region...that would be cool.

Sure it is. What is Williams, for example? They're probably like 60ish in Massey now.

There needs to be some objective definition of "top 25 caliber" for this to mean anything.

"Top 25 Caliber" = a team that meets any of the following 3 criteria.

* In the current D3hoops.com Top 25 or ORV - http://www.d3hoops.com/top25/men/2017-18/week7

* In the current Massey Top 25 - https://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?s=cb2018&sub=11620

* In the top 25 of KnightSlappy's D3 Efficiency Rating - http://tomaroonandgold.blogspot.com/p/division-iii-mens-basketball-efficiency.html

The problem with Massey (for today anyways) is that it appears to only be updating on Mondays so no results from this week have factored in to the rankings yet.

Just roll with it...it's what we have for today.

[Titan Q]

Why does the D3 poll get more than 25 but not Massey or KS?

Because all of the D3hoops.com ORV teams are on at least one pollster's top 25 ballot. 

[me]

The issue with this, of course, is "what is 'top 25 caliber'?"

Teams that could legitimately get Top 25 consideration/votes?

It's OK if there is subjectivity to it.  I don't think that gray area is as big/problematic as it might seem. 

I would love to see each region...that would be cool.

Sure it is. What is Williams, for example? They're probably like 60ish in Massey now.

There needs to be some objective definition of "top 25 caliber" for this to mean anything.

"Top 25 Caliber" = a team that meets any of the following 3 criteria.

* In the current D3hoops.com Top 25 or ORV - http://www.d3hoops.com/top25/men/2017-18/week7

* In the current Massey Top 25 - https://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?s=cb2018&sub=11620

* In the top 25 of KnightSlappy's D3 Efficiency Rating - http://tomaroonandgold.blogspot.com/p/division-iii-mens-basketball-efficiency.html

The problem with Massey (for today anyways) is that it appears to only be updating on Mondays so no results from this week have factored in to the rankings yet.

Just roll with it...it's what we have for today.

Might be interesting to see how much it changes in a week vs. how much the polls do. I have a feeling the computer rankings are much less viscous.

[Titan Q]

Why does the D3 poll get more than 25 but not Massey or KS?

Really you should just use Massey and KS and leave the biased humans out of it. And 25 is too restrictive anyway, so the #26 team just isn't any good?

This is why computer rankings and algorithms exist. They can do this job better than humans, and not establish subjective thresholds needlessly. Something thresholding is useful, but more often it's a heuristic trade-off for the benefit of humans.

It's funny how people want to try to reinvent the wheel, but then complain about how the wheel that's already been invented doesn't work.

If you want to go down this road though you should establish buckets or clusters or some such to account for the actual difference in the teams in the rankings, rather than an ordinal which assumes the same amount of difference between 1 and 6 as between 41 and 46, which is almost certainly not true.

Not really looking for any buckets or clusters or talk of algorithms. 

You asked for a definition of "top 25 caliber" so I gave you one.

Just roll with it.  It will be all good, I promise.

[Smitty Oom]

My West Region Rankings
1. Whitman Blues (17-0, 8-0 NWC) - vs. Occidental, vs. UW-Stevens Point (Las Vegas), vs. Ohio Wesleyan (Las Vegas), vs. Whitworth .... W at Walla Walla University (NAIA)
2. St. John's Johnnies (14-1, 10-0 MIAC) - vs. Bethel, at Augsburg ... W at St. Cloud State University (D2)
3. Whitworth Pirates (15-2, 7-1 NWC) - vs. North Central
4. Nebraska Wesleyan Prairie Wolves (16-2, 7-2 IIAC) - vs. Wartburg ... W vs. Doane University (NAIA)
5. Loras Duhawks (14-4, 7-2 IIAC) - vs. Nebraska Wesleyan, at Buena Vista
6. Augsburg Auggies (13-4, 8-4 MIAC) - vs. Loras, vs. Wartburg (Las vegas), at Bethel
7. Bethel Royals (12-4, 7-4 MIAC) - at Augsburg
8. Buena Vista Beavers (14-4, 7-2 IIAC) - vs. Elmhurst, at Nebraska Wesleyan
9. Wartburg Knights (12-5, 5-3 IIAC) - vs. Loras, vs. UW-Stevens Point (Las Vegas), vs. Buena Vista ... L at UNI (D1), W at Graceland University (NAIA), W at Waldorf University (NAIA)
10. Occidental Tigers (14-2, 7-0 SCIAC) - ... W vs. West Coast Baptist (NCCAA), W vs. Cal Mirmar University (USCAA), W vs. Cal Mirmar University (USCAA), W vs. UC Mercid (NAIA), L at West Coast Baptist (NCCAA), W vs. Westcliff (USCAA)

Top three I felt pretty confident about. I think you could have Loras/Neb Wesleyan in either order. Loras won the head to head in OT on their home floor. Not super convincing. NWU doesn't have as bad of losses (Loras lost at Simpson and Concordia (WI)), so I put them one slot higher. Augsburg and Bethel are pretty close as well, splitting the season head to head, but Augsburg has some solid wins over IIAC opponents Warty and Loras that props them ahead of Bethel, who lacks a solid non-conference result. Wartburg and Occidental are hurt by playing so many non-d3 opponents in my opinion.

I feel like I was more generous including "Top 25 consideration" teams than Titan Q was. Like I included as a win at Elmhurst as a good result, even though that may have some pushback. I also included a win over a team that was on this top 10 list, such as Whitman over Occidental, even though some would say Oxy isn't in the "conversation" of top 25.

Feels weird not having St. Thomas on here...

EDIT: I just noticed all of the new posts here, all of the results I included (besides Elmhurst) met one of the top 25 criteria. I crossed those out, will adjust and repost.

[Titan Q]

My West Region Rankings
1. Whitman Blues (17-0, 8-0 NWC) - vs. Occidental, vs. UW-Stevens Point (Las Vegas), vs. Ohio Wesleyan (Las Vegas), vs. Whitworth .... W at Walla Walla University (NAIA)
2. St. John's Johnnies (14-1, 10-0 MIAC) - vs. Bethel, at Augsburg ... W at St. Cloud State University (D2)
3. Whitworth Pirates (15-2, 7-1 NWC) - vs. North Central
4. Nebraska Wesleyan Prairie Wolves (16-2, 7-2 IIAC) - vs. Wartburg ... W vs. Doane University (NAIA)
5. Loras Duhawks (14-4, 7-2 IIAC) - vs. Nebraska Wesleyan, at Buena Vista
6. Augsburg Auggies (13-4, 8-4 MIAC) - vs. Loras, vs. Wartburg (Las vegas), at Bethel
7. Bethel Royals (12-4, 7-4 MIAC) - at Augsburg
8. Buena Vista Beavers (14-4, 7-2 IIAC) - vs. Elmhurst, at Nebraska Wesleyan
9. Wartburg Knights (12-5, 5-3 IIAC) - vs. Loras, vs. UW-Stevens Point (Las Vegas), vs. Buena Vista ... L at UNI (D1), W at Graceland University (NAIA), W at Waldorf University (NAIA)
10. Occidental Tigers (14-2, 7-0 SCIAC) - ... W vs. West Coast Baptist (NCCAA), W vs. Cal Mirmar University (USCAA), W vs. Cal Mirmar University (USCAA), W vs. UC Mercid (NAIA), L at West Coast Baptist (NCCAA), W vs. Westcliff (USCAA)

Top three I felt pretty confident about. I think you could have Loras/Neb Wesleyan in either order. Loras won the head to head in OT on their home floor. Not super convincing. NWU doesn't have as bad of losses (Loras lost at Simpson and Concordia (WI)), so I put them one slot higher. Augsburg and Bethel are pretty close as well, splitting the season head to head, but Augsburg has some solid wins over IIAC opponents Warty and Loras that props them ahead of Bethel, who lacks a solid non-conference result. Wartburg and Occidental are hurt by playing so many non-d3 opponents in my opinion.

I feel like I was more generous including "Top 25 consideration" teams than Titan Q was. Like I included as a win at Elmhurst as a good result, even though that may have some pushback. I also included a win over a team that was on this top 10 list, such as Whitman over Occidental, even though some would say Oxy isn't in the "conversation" of top 25.

Feels weird not having St. Thomas on here...

Thanks Smitty!   Please apply the new "top 25 caliber" criteria.  That will give us some consistency. 

[Titan Q]

That's not really an answer. This is giving more credence to biased humans than objective data-driven formulas.

You asked for the rule...and I made it.

It's all good man, I promise.  Humans are OK too.

[Titan Q]

Smitty, let's take all the non-D3 wins out...that will get too messy.

Great job, man...thank you!

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

The issue with this, of course, is "what is 'top 25 caliber'?"

Teams that could legitimately get Top 25 consideration/votes?

It's OK if there is subjectivity to it.  I don't think that gray area is as big/problematic as it might seem. 

I would love to see each region...that would be cool.

Sure it is. What is Williams, for example? They're probably like 60ish in Massey now.

There needs to be some objective definition of "top 25 caliber" for this to mean anything.

"Top 25 Caliber" = a team that meets any of the following 3 criteria.

* In the current D3hoops.com Top 25 or ORV - http://www.d3hoops.com/top25/men/2017-18/week7

* In the current Massey Top 25 - https://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?s=cb2018&sub=11620

* In the top 25 of KnightSlappy's D3 Efficiency Rating - http://tomaroonandgold.blogspot.com/p/division-iii-mens-basketball-efficiency.html

The problem with Massey (for today anyways) is that it appears to only be updating on Mondays so no results from this week have factored in to the rankings yet.

There won't be a new poll today either. Is that a problem?

Fair point. I think it's that I'm used to Massey updating more frequently than this that causes me to think it's far out of date.

For my list I'm listing three types of results... wins over good teams, losses to good teams (good teams being defined as teams that are on my consideration list for this exercise and similar teams from other regions), and losses to weaker teams (basically around .500 and worse)
It's pretty obvious who #1 in the GL is... after that it's a cluster.

[Smitty Oom]

My West Region Rankings
1. Whitman Blues (17-0, 8-0 NWC) - vs. Occidental, vs. UW-Stevens Point (Las Vegas), vs. Ohio Wesleyan (Las Vegas), vs. Whitworth
2. St. John's Johnnies (14-1, 10-0 MIAC) - vs. Bethel, at Augsburg
3. Whitworth Pirates (15-2, 7-1 NWC) - vs. North Central
4. Nebraska Wesleyan Prairie Wolves (16-2, 7-2 IIAC) - vs. Wartburg
5. Loras Duhawks (14-4, 7-2 IIAC) - vs. Nebraska Wesleyan, at Buena Vista
6. Augsburg Auggies (13-4, 8-4 MIAC) - vs. Loras, vs. Wartburg (Las vegas), at Bethel
7. Bethel Royals (12-4, 7-4 MIAC) - at Augsburg
8. Buena Vista Beavers (14-4, 7-2 IIAC) - at Nebraska Wesleyan
9. Wartburg Knights (12-5, 5-3 IIAC) - vs. Loras, vs. UW-Stevens Point (Las Vegas), vs. Buena Vista
10. Occidental Tigers (14-2, 7-0 SCIAC) -

Top three I felt pretty confident about. I think you could have Loras/Neb Wesleyan in either order. Loras won the head to head in OT on their home floor. Not super convincing. NWU doesn't have as bad of losses (Loras lost at Simpson and Concordia (WI)), so I put them one slot higher. Augsburg and Bethel are pretty close as well, splitting the season head to head, but Augsburg has some solid wins over IIAC opponents Warty and Loras that props them ahead of Bethel, who lacks a solid non-conference result. Wartburg and Occidental are hurt by playing so many non-d3 opponents in my opinion.

UW-Stevens Point is the only opponent I have listed that doesn't meet any of the criteria. They are 27 in Massey and 38 in Snyders efficiency ratings with no votes in d3hoops poll. I kept them in because I would be shocked if they don't qualify for one of those 3 criteria with the newest updates coming tomorrow.

Surprisingly, all 10 teams crack the top 25 (or D3 ORV) in one of the three criteria!

Feels weird not having St. Thomas on here...