Top 25 talk

[WUPHF]

It is very interesting to include the Massey Ratings, but the usual disclaimers apply.

Wabash, for example, has only one result on the Massey Ratings books.  The win over Rose-Hulman will help a little when that eventually gets included.

[noonhooper]

If disclaimers stopped us then no one would post on this thread until February. Wild speculation, small sample-sizes and huge jumps to conclusions are what a November poll is for!

[noonhooper]

Finding the Massey SOS for the top25 was waaaay easier than hunting for the other group. I don't think you can actually take anything from these numbers, but it is an interesting look at what kind of non-conf schedule people are playing early. I have made schedules before and I would say the teams in the 80-180 range are probably pretty balanced and tried to get some good teams on the schedule but didn't overdo it. Teams with a top-80 SOS either want to be challenged and feel great about their team or know that their conference won't give them any boost. Its the teams in the 200s and below after four or five games that definitely chose to play cupcakes. **Some teams are stuck with schedules because of location, finances, administrative decisions etc, I know**

1   Nebraska Wesleyan 84
2   Williams   342
3   Hamilton   312
4   UW-Stevens Point  93   
5   Augustana     39
6   Whitman    18
7   Wittenberg  226   
8   Swarthmore  171   
9   UW-Oshkosh   68
10   Illinois Wesleyan  50   
11   MIT   21
12   Middlebury   350   
13   Plattsburgh State   314   
14   Whitworth    94
15   UW-Whitewater    79
16   Wooster   119
17   Randolph-Macon   180   
18   Wheaton (Ill.)   17
19   Loras   81
20   Rochester    202
21   Marietta   180
22   Christopher Newport   104
23   Emory   157
24   New Jersey City     197
25   Pomona-Pitzer   63

[WUPHF]

If disclaimers stopped us then no one would post on this thread until February. Wild speculation, small sample-sizes and huge jumps to conclusions are what a November poll is for!

I do honestly find the Massey Ratings interesting and I absolutely agree with your point (I mentioned the ratings elsewhere in regards to a conference), but Massey appears to be further behind this season and the utility of the ratings varies from program to program.

[Gregory Sager]

Still, it's hard not to notice the trend for the NESCAC teams. All three NESCAC entrants are well below 300, and two of them (Williams and Middlebury) are in the bottom quartile of D3 as a whole. And none of the teams in that league are "stuck with schedules because of location, finances, administrative decisions, etc."

For what it's worth, I don't think it's that big of a deal at this point. After all, we're still only in November. But, as I said, it's hard not to notice it.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Still, it's hard not to notice the trend for the NESCAC teams. All three NESCAC entrants are well below 300, and two of them (Williams and Middlebury) are in the bottom quartile of D3 as a whole. And none of the teams in that league are "stuck with schedules because of location, finances, administrative decisions, etc."

For what it's worth, I don't think it's that big of a deal at this point. After all, we're still only in November. But, as I said, it's hard not to notice it.

Two things the NESCACs do have to deal with ... they do have to schedule MORE non-conference games than many, most, others do ... and that does result in some weaker opponents by default. They, MBB primarily, also have a tendency to schedule those weaker opponents at the start of the season to help ease into the season. (I've notice the WBB side tends to not mind scheduling tough opponents to start to some degree.)

Remember, NESCAC still isn't allowed to start practices until Nov. 1 and they are not allowed to start play until the Friday before Thanksgiving - despite the recent change to allow the season to start on Nov. 8 for the rest of Division III. That could be really interesting in a few years when that Friday is Nov. 22 ... while most others will have started a full two weeks prior.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Still, it's hard not to notice the trend for the NESCAC teams. All three NESCAC entrants are well below 300, and two of them (Williams and Middlebury) are in the bottom quartile of D3 as a whole. And none of the teams in that league are "stuck with schedules because of location, finances, administrative decisions, etc."

For what it's worth, I don't think it's that big of a deal at this point. After all, we're still only in November. But, as I said, it's hard not to notice it.

And certainly not constrained by lack of non-con games (being the only(?) conference in D3 with a single round-robin) or geographically available cupcakes to choose from (unlike 'island' teams).  And it is not THAT early for most teams - many have already completed 1/5th to 1/4th of their season.

No, the weak scheduling is purely a choice.  Medical warning to NESCAC teams:  a steady diet of cupcakes may lead to obesity, diabetes, and heart problems.

[nescac1]

Thanks, Dave, for weighing in, and I believe exactly right on all counts.  It seem that the NESCAC out-of-league schedules start getting a LOT more interesting this week, and into future weeks, for many teams.  Williams for example has a fairly strong group of five games coming up soon that should seriously amp up its strength of non-conference schedule (Wesleyan / Union / Springfield / Montclair / Moravian).  And that is typical among its peers.  Middlebury's schedule looks really weak due to two putrid opening games (and Middlebury does suffer from a lack of ANY credible in-state opponents, nothing they can do about that), but the Panthers just played Endicott and have loads of quality opponents ahead (Plattsburgh, Swarthmore, Skidmore and Keene St. in particular).  Hamilton is geographically situated in a weak region, but then again does seem to avoid playing the stronger SUNYAC schools from year to year.  Whether that is Hamilton's decision, or the SUNYAC powers, I'm not sure ...

One other point to consider: scheduling is a two-way street.  Some schools are not eager to pick up likely losses against NESCAC powers in non-conference play, and are generally hesitant to schedule Williams/Amherst/Middlebury accordingly. 

In some ways I wish the NESCAC schools would start practice earlier, but on the other, basketball is a VERY long season and perhaps there is benefit in reducing the overall length of the practice grind.  I'm not really sure which way it cuts by January, but for sure in those mid-November games, NESCAC teams often look very rusty / sloppy relative to their peers, so it would be foolish to frontload non-conference schedules.  E.g. when the Williams team that featured Duncan Robinson and Michael Mayer and made it to the title game lost its opening game to Southern Vermont ...

[Mr. Ypsi]

Thanks, Dave, for weighing in, and I believe exactly right on all counts.  It seem that the NESCAC out-of-league schedules start getting a LOT more interesting this week, and into future weeks, for many teams.  Williams for example has a fairly strong group of five games coming up soon that should seriously amp up its strength of non-conference schedule (Wesleyan / Union / Springfield / Montclair / Moravian).  And that is typical among its peers.  Middlebury's schedule looks really weak due to two putrid opening games (and Middlebury does suffer from a lack of ANY credible in-state opponents, nothing they can do about that), but the Panthers just played Endicott and have loads of quality opponents ahead (Plattsburgh, Swarthmore, Skidmore and Keene St. in particular).  Hamilton is geographically situated in a weak region, but then again does seem to avoid playing the stronger SUNYAC schools from year to year.  Whether that is Hamilton's decision, or the SUNYAC powers, I'm not sure ...

One other point to consider: scheduling is a two-way street.  Some schools are not eager to pick up likely losses against NESCAC powers in non-conference play, and are generally hesitant to schedule Williams/Amherst/Middlebury accordingly. 

In some ways I wish the NESCAC schools would start practice earlier, but on the other, basketball is a VERY long season and perhaps there is benefit in reducing the overall length of the practice grind.  I'm not really sure which way it cuts by January, but for sure in those mid-November games, NESCAC teams often look very rusty / sloppy relative to their peers, so it would be foolish to frontload non-conference schedules.  E.g. when the Williams team that featured Duncan Robinson and Michael Mayer and made it to the title game lost its opening game to Southern Vermont ...

That MAY not be a good example.  Robinson was a freshman, and presumably improved tremendously over the season.  Mayer was injured much of the season and probably wasn't really 100% until the postseason.  That was also the season that Amherst beat Williams fairly comfortably THREE times, then was completely run out of Salem in the FF.  (By the FF I'm fairly confident in saying Mayer was the best player in D3, but zero chance of national POY based on the total season.)

[smedindy]

It's all for phony baloney show anyway to have the NESCAC be that way. Other academically elite schools somehow struggle on with the usual practice start dates and competition dates.

Also, I think the SOS bump, even losing to an Amherst, etc, would help a bubble team. Maybe.

And, the NESCAC schools could flash some green at some teams, pay for hotels or something like that.

Sorry, I'm just...well...feeling stabby today. 

[nescac1]

Mayer was healthy for the Southern Vermont game and Duncan was already very good, though obviously improved a ton.  I've watched a lot of early season Nescac basketball.  There is no question that they are way behind other teams in the season's first week and are not on an even footing for a few weeks.  You can call a focus on academics phoney baloney if you want, but the coaches have no say in a league-wide longstanding policy (believe me they would all choose differently if an option) and they would be fools to schedule tough opponents on the opening weekend.  But hey, I'm glad we've added yet another complaint to the ever-growing list of grumbles about Nescac!

[Greek Tragedy]

I believe the GNAC is playing a single round robin this year.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Mayer was healthy for the Southern Vermont game and Duncan was already very good, though obviously improved a ton.  I've watched a lot of early season Nescac basketball.  There is no question that they are way behind other teams in the season's first week and are not on an even footing for a few weeks.  You can call a focus on academics phoney baloney if you want, but the coaches have no say in a league-wide longstanding policy (believe me they would all choose differently if an option) and they would be fools to schedule tough opponents on the opening weekend.  But hey, I'm glad we've added yet another complaint to the ever-growing list of grumbles about Nescac!

I suspected Mayer was healthy for So. VT - he got hurt in what the 4th or 5th game?  Duncan was 'very good' for a h.s. player, but probably not yet good for a college player.  And So. VT was pretty good that year - no disgrace.

As a college teacher my whole career, I would be the last person to cry 'phony baloney' on a focus on academics, but schools with pedigrees like NESCAC somehow survive with seasons starting earlier.  I have little doubt that NESCAC coaches disagree with the policy - I cry 'phony baloney' on the administrators.

Although it was inadvertent, I take pride in adding to your list of NESCAC grumbles!   But you might want to consider the possibility that they are not ALL jealousy of the NESCAC.  I'm from the CCIW, which is generally ranked above the NESCAC.  (Though I AM jealous that you often get more teams into the tourney, just because you don't cannibalize each other.)

[nescac1]

I didn't speculate on the reason for the grumbles ... but there is no doubt that they appear about some topic or another (usually schedule-related) like clockwork every year here .  In the end, coaches everywhere are the same - they are going to work the system the best they can given the constraints they have.

[smedindy]

Look, I didn't blame the coaches. It just seems the NESCAC scheduling cupcakes early is like the D-1 schools who schedule the MEAC and SWAC tomato cans. And for cripes sake, Davidson is a #10 ranked Liberal Arts college and they play D-1 and have football! There's CMS and Carleton and Grinnell and Washington & Lee among the Top 20 that play football, participate in the post season, and somehow their colleges are still ranked highly.

It may be picking on the NESCAC but their model seems elitist and sanctimonious to many.