Top 25 talk

[fantastic50]

And for cripes sake, Davidson is a #10 ranked Liberal Arts college and they play D-1 and have football!

Davidson barely plays D-1 football.  The Wildcats are in the Pioneer Football League, one of the weakest conferences in FCS, with no football scholarships allowed.  Also, Davidson played only D-2 and D-3 teams in their non-conference games this fall.

[nescac1]

NESCAC schedules cupcakes (generally) for all of roughly three games, and for very good reasons that you seem to completely ignore.  We are talking about basketball, not football, and none of the schools you list start practices two weeks after everyone else in D3.  Why do you care so much?  By two weeks into the season, NESCAC teams are generally playing consistently strong or at least reasonably strong opponents.  Would it really make a difference to you if NESCAC played tougher out-of-conference games on week one as opposed to week 3 or 4?  In all events, so long as multiple NESCAC teams keep advancing deep in NCAA tourneys regularly, it's hard to say that their scheduling approach is somehow problematic.  Clearly, they are battle-tested enough by the time they get to the post-season to thrive. 

[smedindy]

And for cripes sake, Davidson is a #10 ranked Liberal Arts college and they play D-1 and have football!

Davidson barely plays D-1 football.  The Wildcats are in the Pioneer Football League, one of the weakest conferences in FCS, with no football scholarships allowed.  Also, Davidson played only D-2 and D-3 teams in their non-conference games this fall.

They still offer it. I'm well aware of the Pioneer League, so no need to 'football splain' it to me. They have to travel to the Midwest, New York, and California to play in this league. That ain't hay.

San Diego won first round games in 2016 and 2017 in the playoffs, so it's not like they're hapless backwaters of D-1A.

[toad22]

Every school makes their own decisions about how they want to operate. I hate the fact that Williams can't start Practice until November 1. That we only get 24 games, including any exhibitions or scrimmages. The decision to play 10 NESCAC games instead of as many as 20 was made by the college presidents. This is where we are. Nobody (but the presidents) can change any of this. Travel time to non-league games is scrutinized to be sure that the minimum amount of class time is being missed. I wish there was more flexibility. The last piece of this is that Williams has been dropped by a bunch of better opponents because they were sick of losing to us (I am very thankful for Salem State and Springfield, they always want to play)!

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (So Far)

No extra teams listed in this report; hopefan's list of the remaining undefeated teams with no votes was longer than I wanted to tackle this week.

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	625	Nebraska Wesleyan	7-0	def. Central, 91-83; 12/01 vs. Dubuque
#2	545	Williams	5-0	11/29 vs. Fitchburg State; 12/01 vs. Wesleyan
#3	508	Hamilton	5-0	11/29 vs. Utica; 12/01 vs. Johnson and Wales
#4	496	UW-Stevens Point	3-1	LOST to #5 Augustana, 84-86 OT; 12/01 vs. UW-Superior
#5	473	Augustana	4-1	def. #4 UW-Stevens Point, 86-84 OT; 12/01 vs. Carroll
#6	471	Whitman	4-1	11/30 vs. Pacific; 12/01 vs. Willamette
#7	454	Wittenberg	4-1	LOST to #21 Marietta, 74-84; 12/01 vs. Oberlin
#8	428	Swarthmore	4-0	11/29 vs. T#35 Johns Hopkins; 12/01 vs. Franklin and Marshall
#9	420	UW-Oshkosh	3-1	def. North Park, 86-53; 12/01 vs. Elmhurst
#10	360	Illinois Wesleyan	6-0	12/01 vs. Carthage
#11	340	MIT	3-1	11/29 vs. Pine Manor; 12/01 vs. Lasell
#12	317	Middlebury	4-0	def. Morrisville State, 78-63; 11/29 vs. New England College; 12/01 vs. Keene State
#13	295	Plattsburgh State	4-0	def. St. Lawrence, 93-64; 11/30 vs. SUNY New Paltz; 12/01 vs. SUNY Oneonta
#14	290	Whitworth	3-1	11/30 vs. Willamette; 12/01 vs. Pacific
#15	258	UW-Whitewater	5-0	def. Beloit, 92-65
#16	251	Wooster	5-0	def. Kenyon, 90-70; 12/01 vs. Hiram
#17	191	Randolph-Macon	8-0	def. Washington and Lee, 84-76; 12/01 vs. #33 Emory and Henry
#18	184	Wheaton (Ill.)	5-0	11/29 vs. Chicago; 12/01 vs. North Park
#19	175	Loras	4-1	LOST to Dubuque, 73-78; 12/01 vs. Buena Vista
#20	135	Rochester	6-0	IDLE
#21	108	Marietta	6-0	def. #7 Wittenberg, 84-74; 12/01 vs. #26 John Carroll
#22	94	Christopher Newport	5-0	def. Shenandoah, 91-78; 12/01 vs. Randolph; 12/02 vs. Lynchburg
#23	75	Emory	4-2	LOST to Sewanee, 70-83; 12/01 vs. Trinity (Texas)
#24	71	New Jersey City	4-2	LOST to William Paterson, 72-88; 12/01 vs. Rowan
#25	60	Pomona-Pitzer	4-0	11/30 vs. Washington U.; 12/01 vs. TBA

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	57	John Carroll	3-1	12/01 vs. #21 Marietta
#27	49	North Central (Ill.)	4-0	def. Finlandia, 83-58; 12/01 vs. Millikin
#28	47	Springfield	2-3	LOST to Becker, 70-74
#29	46	St. John's	4-1	def. Bethel, 90-55; 12/01 vs. Gustavus Adolphus
#30	44	Amherst	4-0	def. Anna Maria, 98-58; 12/01 vs. Emerson
#31	42	Endicott	5-1	def. Curry, 105-58; 12/01 vs. #37 Nichols
#32	32	Nazareth	3-1	LOST to Oswego State, 55-70
#33	28	Emory and Henry	6-1	LOST to Lynchburg, 66-87; 12/01 vs. #17 Randolph-Macon
#34	24	Ramapo	5-1	LOST to #43 Montclair State, 75-95; 12/01 vs. Stockton
T#35	22	UW-Platteville	1-2	11/30 vs. Alma; 12/01 vs. TBA
T#35	22	Johns Hopkins	4-2	11/29 vs. #8 Swarthmore; 12/01 vs. Washington College
#37	19	Nichols	5-0	def. Salve Regina, 106-79; 12/01 vs. #31 Endicott
#38	15	Penn State-Behrend	3-1	LOST to La Roche, 64-74; 12/01 vs. Pitt-Bradford
#39	13	Salisbury	6-0	def. Washington College, 68-62; def. Goucher, 101-71; 12/01 vs. St. Mary's (Md.)
#40	9	Aurora	1-1	LOST to Wisconsin Lutheran, 82-96; 12/01 vs. Illinois Tech
#41	8	Scranton	5-0	def. Cabrini, 90-80; 12/01 vs. Goucher
#42	7	Maryville (Tenn.)	1-4	LOST to Covenant, 58-79; 12/01 vs. Greensboro; 12/02 vs. Methodist
#43	6	Montclair State	6-1	def. #34 Ramapo, 95-75; 12/01 vs. Kean
#44	5	WPI	5-0	def. Tufts, 89-66; 12/01 vs. Fitchburg State
#45	3	Roanoke	4-2	def. Southern Virginia, 79-76; 12/01 vs. Averett
T#46	1	Hope	3-2	IDLE
T#46	1	Lake Forest	3-0	11/30 vs. Grinnell; 12/01 vs. Cornell
T#46	1	St. Thomas	3-1	def. Macalester, 83-61; 11/30 vs. UW-River Falls

[Darryl Nester]

With the new Top 25 list out yesterday, let's look at who is NOT in.

Here are undefeated teams that have yet to catch any voters eye: ...

How They Fared (So Far)

No extra teams listed in this report; hopefan's list of the remaining undefeated teams with no votes was longer than I wanted to tackle this week.

jk ...

Team	W-L	Results
Sewanee	7-0	def. #23 Emory, 83-70; 12/01 vs. Centre
Mary Hardin-Baylor	5-0	def. Schreiner, 103-80; 11/29 vs. East Texas Baptist; 12/01 vs. LeTourneau
Millsaps	6-0	def. Centenary (La.), 70-55; 11/30 vs. Austin; 12/01 vs. University of Dallas
Alfred	4-1	LOST to SUNY Geneseo, 73-89
Utica	4-0	11/29 vs. #3 Hamilton
Mass-Boston	4-1	LOST to Keene State, 77-92; 12/01 vs. Eastern Connecticut
Wilkes	4-1	LOST to Drew, 65-67; 12/01 vs. Clarks Summit
MSOE	5-0	def. Rockford, 108-89; 12/01 vs. Marian
St. Elizabeth	5-0	def. King's (N.Y.), 96-72; def. Penn College, 87-57; 12/01 vs. Lancaster Bible
New England College	4-0	11/29 vs. #12 Middlebury
Coast Guard	5-0	def. Fisher, 91-70; 12/02 vs. Merchant Marine
Rowan	4-1	LOST to TCNJ, 75-79; 12/01 vs. #24 New Jersey City
Lynchburg	5-0	def. Emory and Henry, 87-66; 12/01 vs. Mary Washington; 12/02 vs. #22 Christopher Newport
Centre	5-0	def. Franklin, 80-71; 12/01 vs. Sewanee
Johnson and Wales (Colo.)	4-0	12/01 vs. Whittier; 12/02 vs. UC Santa Cruz
Union	3-0	11/30 vs. Hobart; 12/01 vs. Rochester Tech
Augsburg	4-0	def. Carleton, 74-46; 12/01 vs. Bethel
DePauw	4-0	def. Rose-Hulman, 71-67; 12/01 vs. Kenyon
Wabash	4-0	def. Rose-Hulman, 77-74; def. Elmhurst, 95-71; 12/01 vs. Denison
Occidental	4-0	def. Cal Miramar, 91-59; 12/01 vs. West Coast Baptist
Oswego State	4-0	def. Nazareth, 70-55; 11/30 vs. SUNY Geneseo; 12/01 vs. Brockport
SUNY Oneonta	3-1	LOST to Hartwick, 72-83; 11/30 vs. SUNY Potsdam; 12/01 vs. #13 Plattsburgh State
Pfeiffer	2-1	LOST to Methodist, 77-85; 11/30 vs. Johnson (Tenn.); 12/01 vs. Piedmont International
Mount St. Mary	2-0	def. Hunter, 61-56; 11/29 vs. Yeshiva; 12/01 vs. St. Joseph's (Bklyn.)

[Greek Tragedy]

Point lost on the road to annual powerhouse Augustana. I think their 4th loss in a row to them. I guess they should've taken NESCAC's lead and scheduled Cupcake University instead. I'm kidding!

[fantastic50]

And for cripes sake, Davidson is a #10 ranked Liberal Arts college and they play D-1 and have football!

Davidson barely plays D-1 football.  The Wildcats are in the Pioneer Football League, one of the weakest conferences in FCS, with no football scholarships allowed.  Also, Davidson played only D-2 and D-3 teams in their non-conference games this fall.

They still offer it. I'm well aware of the Pioneer League, so no need to 'football splain' it to me. They have to travel to the Midwest, New York, and California to play in this league. That ain't hay.

San Diego won first round games in 2016 and 2017 in the playoffs, so it's not like they're hapless backwaters of D-1A.

No disrespect to you or Davidson intended, just trying to point out the difference between fielding a D-1 football team and being highly competitive at the FCS level as an SLAC (as with Wofford or Richmond in recent years, for example)

[smedindy]

And for cripes sake, Davidson is a #10 ranked Liberal Arts college and they play D-1 and have football!

Davidson barely plays D-1 football.  The Wildcats are in the Pioneer Football League, one of the weakest conferences in FCS, with no football scholarships allowed.  Also, Davidson played only D-2 and D-3 teams in their non-conference games this fall.

They still offer it. I'm well aware of the Pioneer League, so no need to 'football splain' it to me. They have to travel to the Midwest, New York, and California to play in this league. That ain't hay.

San Diego won first round games in 2016 and 2017 in the playoffs, so it's not like they're hapless backwaters of D-1A.

No disrespect to you or Davidson intended, just trying to point out the difference between fielding a D-1 football team and being highly competitive at the FCS level as an SLAC (as with Wofford or Richmond in recent years, for example)

I almost picked Richmond for this example, BTW.

[smedindy]

Every school makes their own decisions about how they want to operate. I hate the fact that Williams can't start Practice until November 1. That we only get 24 games, including any exhibitions or scrimmages. The decision to play 10 NESCAC games instead of as many as 20 was made by the college presidents. This is where we are. Nobody (but the presidents) can change any of this. Travel time to non-league games is scrutinized to be sure that the minimum amount of class time is being missed. I wish there was more flexibility. The last piece of this is that Williams has been dropped by a bunch of better opponents because they were sick of losing to us (I am very thankful for Salem State and Springfield, they always want to play)!

We know all of that - and again a little green helps soothe the losing.

[nescac1]

It is interesting that the top-ranked team in Division 3, the loaded-with-talent defending national champion, did not schedule for this season a single team ranked in the pre-season D3hoops top 25.  By contrast, Williams plays three such teams (as well as SEVEN more games against pre-season ORV teams), and Middlebury four (as well as three more games against pre-season ORV teams).  Yet I haven't heard many (any?) complaints about Nebraska Wesleyan scheduling ... just sayin .  And even two of Williams' first five games, which admittedly is the easiest stretch on the schedule by far, were vs. ORV teams - it's hardly Williams' fault that those teams have yet to play to expectations.   

[I do not say this to bash Nebraska Wesleyan, which I am sure has very good reasons, geographical and otherwise, for playing the schedule it does.  Just noting that teams, and not just NESCAC teams, have a wide variety of scheduling constraints]. 

[sac]

The closest non-conference team in the top 25 or ORV to Nebraska Wesleyan is Augustana.  363 miles, 5 hours 20 min.

[nescac1]

Like I said, Nebraska Wesleyan has good reasons for scheduling as it does (although I do note they managed to take two trips to Wisconsin and Minnesota without playing any of the many ranked WIAC/MIAC teams).  And I'm not trying to impugn NWU's overall schedule in any way - like everyone else in D3, including NESCAC, they work within certain constraints that higher divisions simply don't have to deal with.  I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of attacking NESCAC teams in particular on this, when they do actually schedule a lot of very credible opponents, at least judging by D3hoops' primary metric. 

[Greek Tragedy]

Like I said, Nebraska Wesleyan has good reasons for scheduling as it does (although I do note they managed to take two trips to Wisconsin and Minnesota without playing any of the many ranked WIAC/MIAC teams).  And I'm not trying to impugn NWU's overall schedule in any way - like everyone else in D3, including NESCAC, they work within certain constraints that higher divisions simply don't have to deal with.  I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of attacking NESCAC teams in particular on this, when they do actually schedule a lot of very credible opponents, at least judging by D3hoops' primary metric.

I think it was you that previously stated that it takes two to dance as well. Others have to be willing to schedule NESCAC powers (and maybe NWU) knowing there will probably be rewarded with a loss. Initially, I always find it hard to believe that Stevens Point can't fill their nonconference schedule some years. There are tons of options in the Midwest. Coach Semling pointed out to me one time that he would, "show me the stack of "no's" he has on his desk" from teams that didn't want to play them. I loved the Terry Porter tip-off tourney they used to have and the Sentry Classic over the holidays. Long gone are those tournaments. I guess it cost too much to run...and maybe they had a hard time finding 3 other teams to come to Point.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

The big thing for NESCAC Presidents is the travel and class time - many of the schools simply aren't allowed to travel outside a relatively small radius before the semester ends.