Top 25 talk

[Titan Q]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't really care about points. In MHO, the only thing that matters is what number you're ranked at.

But the what number you're ranked at part is directly a function of the points. 

Loras lost 90 points.

[AndOne]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't really care about points. In MHO, the only thing that matters is what number you're ranked at.

Super basic. When you're in third place, do you notice whether you're one game out of second or two games out of second?

Looks like you just described a rivalry game, AndOne! Congrats!

Try to see it my way......................we can work it out. 

If I'm playing in a football game and we score 80 points but lose 82-80, I care not how many points we scored, only that we lost.
If we get 85 points in a poll, I could care less. What I care about is what number we're ranked at. Like I said before people really don't say "we got 85 points." They say "we're ranked 21st in the poll." I don't think you can honestly argue with that.
Doesn't mean my view is the only way to go. But I also don't think you can say my outlook on the subject doesn't make any sense. 

[AndOne]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't really care about points. In MHO, the only thing that matters is what number you're ranked at.

But the what number you're ranked at part is directly a function of the points. 

Loras lost 90 points.

But they lost to an unranked team with 3 losses. I just think that should have cost more than 2 spots in the poll.

Are you happier that your team is ranked #10 in the country or that they got 438 points?

[Pat Coleman]

If I'm playing in a football game and we score 80 points but lose 82-80, I care not how many points we scored, only that we lost. Apples to oranges, though. That has a whole range of different connotations, as it is a completely different scenario.
If we get 85 points in a poll, I could care less. What I care about is what number we're ranked at. Like I said before people really don't say "we got 85 points." They say "we're ranked 21st in the poll." I don't think you can honestly argue with that. Many people already have, for what it's worth.
Doesn't mean my view is the only way to go. But I also don't think you can say my outlook on the subject doesn't make any sense. 

I feel like my analogy is most apt -- after all, most people want rankings to be standings anyway, so I'm sure you can see the similarities.

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't really care about points. In MHO, the only thing that matters is what number you're ranked at.

But the what number you're ranked at part is directly a function of the points. 

Loras lost 90 points.

But they lost to an unranked team with 3 losses. I just think that should have cost more than 2 spots in the poll.

Are you happier that your team is ranked #10 in the country or that they got 438 points?

They lost more than half their points. 90 points is an average of 3.6 spots lost per ballot. Sometimes polls do weird things. In the football fan poll this year we had a case where a team was ranked higher in the poll than on any ballot.

[AndOne]

Nobody wants this to go on forever so I'll close with two thoughts.

1. I'm happy my team is currently ranked #20. No matter how many points it took to get there.

2. I think anybody whose team is ranked is going to say "we're ranked (whatever #) in the current poll," before they say "we got 406 points in the latest poll."

The defense rests. 

[Gregory Sager]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't really care about points. In MHO, the only thing that matters is what number you're ranked at.

Super basic. When you're in third place, do you notice whether you're one game out of second or two games out of second?

Looks like you just described a rivalry game, AndOne! Congrats!

Try to see it my way......................we can work it out. 

If I'm playing in a football game and we score 80 points but lose 82-80, I care not how many points we scored, only that we lost.
If we get 85 points in a poll, I could care less. What I care about is what number we're ranked at. Like I said before people really don't say "we got 85 points." They say "we're ranked 21st in the poll." I don't think you can honestly argue with that.
Doesn't mean my view is the only way to go. But I also don't think you can say my outlook on the subject doesn't make any sense. 

They're not saying that your outlook on the subject doesn't make any sense, Mark. They're saying that your outlook on the subject is shallow. There's a difference.

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

Nobody wants this to go on forever so I'll close with two thoughts.

1. I'm happy my team is currently ranked #20. No matter how many points it took to get there.

2. I think anybody whose team is ranked is going to say "we're ranked (whatever #) in the current poll," before they say "we got 406 points in the latest poll."

The defense rests. 

It's certainly simpler for someone to say 'we're ranked #14' and leave it at that but it doesn't really paint the full picture. Middlebury is 18th and Amherst is 19th. But the gap between that single place is 3x bigger than between Amherst and Nichols in 25th even though that's 6 spots.

[Pat Coleman]

I can't imagine that Mark hasn't seen any of the hundreds of times in the past 15 years or so where I've said you can't look at one team in the Top 25 in a vacuum.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Nobody wants this to go on forever so I'll close with two thoughts.

1. I'm happy my team is currently ranked #20. No matter how many points it took to get there.

2. I think anybody whose team is ranked is going to say "we're ranked (whatever #) in the current poll," before they say "we got 406 points in the latest poll."

The defense rests.

It's fine to say teams, fans, and players care more about the spot than the points, but you can't use that argument to criticize the voters.  The voters dropped them; they lost more than 50% of their support in the poll.  I wasn't voting for them last week, so it's hard to vote for them less this week.

If we all got together and discussed each team and collectively ranked them, then, yeah, the voters might deserve some criticism, but this is 25 individual ballots - the points are literally the only way to tell when a team goes up or down in perception.

[AndOne]

I'm glad someone finally acknowledges what I think is important to most teams, fans, and players. Namely, the primary thing they're interested in is where they're ranked, not how many points they garnered.

AND (BIG AND) your explanation helps me understand the process more as a whole process than solely as a team by team analysis.
So, thank you very much. 

[Pat Coleman]

I'm glad someone finally acknowledges what I think is important to most teams, fans, and players. Namely, the primary thing they're interested in is where they're ranked, not how many points they garnered.

AND (BIG AND) your explanation helps me understand the process more as a whole process than solely as a team by team analysis.
So, thank you very much. 

It isn't any different than has been said an incredible number of times in the past 15 or so years. It's really new to you?

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I'm glad someone finally acknowledges what I think is important to most teams, fans, and players. Namely, the primary thing they're interested in is where they're ranked, not how many points they garnered.

AND (BIG AND) your explanation helps me understand the process more as a whole process than solely as a team by team analysis.
So, thank you very much. 

It isn't any different than has been said an incredible number of times in the past 15 or so years. It's really new to you?

I kind of have the same point of view, Mark. What has been described by Ryan has been said on these boards in many ways for many years. I've also said it on Hoopsville more times than I can count. Now, I am used to repeating myself for those who are new to this (every year), but you aren't new to this ... thus, I find it interesting that you still beat on it.

Yes, we will continue to repeat in the future, but I honestly thought you understood this process and how this works far better than the average fan.

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (So Far)

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	625	Nebraska Wesleyan	8-0	12/08 vs. Colorado College
#2	567	Williams	7-0	12/06 vs. Union; 12/08 vs. Springfield
#3	546	Augustana	6-1	def. MacMurray, 78-54; 12/08 vs. #8 Illinois Wesleyan
#4	541	Hamilton	7-0	12/06 vs. SUNYIT; 12/08 vs. Elmira
#5	515	Whitman	6-1	12/08 vs. Eastern Ore.
#6	488	UW-Stevens Point	4-1	12/08 vs. T#44 Hope
#7	439	UW-Oshkosh	5-1	def. Finlandia, 95-48; 12/07 vs. Alma; 12/08 vs. Calvin
#8	438	Illinois Wesleyan	7-1	LOST to #28 Wheaton (Ill.), 88-90; 12/08 vs. #3 Augustana
#9	390	MIT	6-1	def. Mass-Dartmouth, 86-64; 12/06 vs. Salem State; 12/08 vs. Fitchburg State
#10	368	Plattsburgh State	7-0	def. #18 Middlebury, 92-83; 12/07 vs. Brockport; 12/08 vs. SUNY Geneseo
#11	344	Whitworth	5-1	12/08 vs. La Verne
#12	338	UW-Whitewater	5-0	12/07 vs. Calvin; 12/08 vs. Alma
#13	322	Marietta	7-0	12/08 vs. Baldwin Wallace
#14	315	Wittenberg	6-1	def. DePauw, 77-66; 12/08 vs. Allegheny
#15	302	Wooster	7-0	def. Allegheny, 101-84; 12/08 vs. Wabash
#16	288	Randolph-Macon	10-0	def. Hampden-Sydney, 92-71; 12/08 vs. #27 Christopher Newport
#17	230	Rochester	7-0	def. SUNY Geneseo, 91-67; 12/06 vs. St. John Fisher; 12/08 vs. Nazareth
#18	197	Middlebury	5-2	LOST to #10 Plattsburgh State, 83-92; 12/08 vs. Skidmore
#19	99	Amherst	5-0	12/06 vs. Babson; 12/08 vs. Lasell
#20	86	North Central (Ill.)	6-0	def. Carroll, 61-47; 12/08 vs. North Park
#21	85	Loras	5-1	def. Wartburg, 91-90; 12/08 vs. Lake Forest
#22	76	Lynchburg	7-1	LOST to Guilford, 78-82; 12/08 vs. Methodist
#23	74	Swarthmore	5-2	def. Ursinus, 61-53; 12/08 vs. Muhlenberg
#24	70	St. John's	5-1	12/08 vs. Hamline
#25	68	Nichols	7-0	def. Curry, 120-76; 12/08 vs. Anna Maria

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	57	Salisbury	8-0	def. Marymount, 67-65 OT; 12/09 vs. Wesley
#27	49	Christopher Newport	6-1	12/08 vs. #16 Randolph-Macon
#28	26	Wheaton (Ill.)	6-2	def. #8 Illinois Wesleyan, 90-88; 12/08 vs. Olivet
#29	25	Montclair State	8-1	def. #30 New Jersey City, 81-76; 12/08 vs. TCNJ
#30	22	New Jersey City	6-3	def. Albertus Magnus, 104-83; LOST to #29 Montclair State, 76-81; 12/08 vs. Rutgers-Newark
#31	21	UW-Platteville	4-2	def. Cardinal Stritch, 95-60; 12/08 vs. Central
#32	20	Johns Hopkins	7-2	def. Gettysburg, 81-56; 12/08 vs. Dickinson
#33	19	Pomona-Pitzer	5-1	12/06 vs. Claremont-Mudd-Scripps
#34	16	Scranton	7-0	def. York (Pa.), 87-68
#35	12	Oswego State	6-0	12/07 vs. Buffalo State; 12/08 vs. Fredonia
#36	10	WPI	7-0	def. Framingham State, 70-61; 12/08 vs. Salem State
#37	9	Eastern Connecticut	5-2	LOST to Western Connecticut, 75-85; 12/08 vs. Plymouth State
#38	7	Emory	6-2	def. LaGrange, 96-87
#39	6	John Carroll	3-3	LOST to Mount Union, 74-95; 12/08 vs. Muskingum
T#40	4	Centre	6-0	IDLE
T#40	4	Endicott	5-2	12/08 vs. Bridgewater State
#42	3	Roanoke	6-2	def. Ferrum, 82-68; 12/08 vs. Virginia Wesleyan
#43	2	St. Thomas	5-1	def. Bethel, 68-65; 12/08 vs. Carleton
T#44	1	Hope	4-2	def. Grace Bible, 89-78; 12/08 vs. #6 UW-Stevens Point
T#44	1	Keene State	5-2	def. Rhode Island College, 98-85; 12/08 vs. Mass-Dartmouth

[fantastic50]

On the others-to-watch list, Wabash won at Ohio Wesleyan last night.  The Little Giants will host #15 Wooster on Saturday, in a battle of undefeated teams.  With the game being in Crawfordsville, where Wabash is a respectable 4-6 against the Scots over the last decade, and both teams in the midst of preparing for final exams next week, this could be one to watch.