Top 25 talk

[jamtod]

I have no doubt Dave will disclose these five voters' contact information so everyone who is offended by Wheaton's placement in the poll can let their feelings be known. The offended posters can organize a march, protest, petition to get these voters kicked off the Top 25 panel and they can elect their own competent posters like Greg Sager, nescac1, WUPHF, hopefan and FC Grizzlies. Then the world, and poll, will be a better place.

"I demand to know the name of the person who voted for [controversial team] and why they have a vote" guy is my favorite poll guy.

I'll work up a template for you for my next tweet.

[smedindy]

I have no doubt Dave will disclose these five voters' contact information so everyone who is offended by Wheaton's placement in the poll can let their feelings be known. The offended posters can organize a march, protest, petition to get these voters kicked off the Top 25 panel and they can elect their own competent posters like Greg Sager, nescac1, WUPHF, hopefan and FC Grizzlies. Then the world, and poll, will be a better place.

"I demand to know the name of the person who voted for [controversial team] and why they have a vote" guy is my favorite poll guy.

Right up there with, "Well, what about...."

[Gregory Sager]

With all due respect to Pat, Dave, et. al that obviously do terrific work on covering D3 sports and giving them their deserving due, is this poll the gold standard or just the best poll we have? The voters that are active on these boards do an incredible job of gathering information and giving it their best shot, but for most of the voters I would imagine it is nearly impossible to accurately cover 400+ teams. Hypothetically, if I'm a voter in the northeast, is it reasonable that I would be able to judge whether or a team in Ohio's sophomore class is able to take the jump and contribute as compared to a team from the Northwest who returns 4 starters but loses two key bench pieces? All of this continuing throughout the season when none of these teams have a chance to play each other out of region to give us actual insight. The poll is more accurate than it is inaccurate, but we see enough teams make runs in the tournament each year that get little to no national recognition to know that the best we can do is guess.

That's fine as far as it goes, but it doesn't really apply in this case. Aston Francis averaged 34.2 ppg, won every major individual award that there is to win in D3, and turned last March's D3 tournament into his own personal playpen. And when he got to D3's biggest stage, the Final Four, he scored 44 points in the semifinals before his team bowed out. That was in spite of the fact that he had to do it against the best team in the nation, which featured some really outstanding defenders. Seriously, you'd have to be living under a rock to be a D3 fan (as opposed to merely being the fan of one particular team) and not to have heard of Aston Francis -- and the point is that the pollsters are as far from living under a rock as can be. As Bob said, they're all credentialed professionals at this level whose willingness to take a blank ballot from Pat every week constitutes an implicit agreement to follow and evaluate D3 as a whole.

There's light-years' worth of difference between not knowing whether a team in Ohio's sophomore class is able to take the jump and contribute, and not knowing the current eligibility status of Aston Francis.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Or maybe they genuinely thought the Wheaton supporting cast was better than Aston Francis allowed them to appear?  I'm certainly biased as a voter and I don't know who any of those five are, but it's entirely possible they wanted to give the rest of the squad some credit.  Personally, I don't think the last five or six teams on my ballot are all that strong and there could've been a couple dozen other names on those lines.  I don't think Wheaton is one of them, but I don't think it's bonkers outrageous for someone else to think so.  I'm wildly wrong about a number of teams every year and the truth is, we just don't know how good any of these teams will be.

St. John Fisher got ranked.  I didn't vote for them. I don't think that squad is demonstrably better than what Wheaton has returning.

It's one thing to argue against the pick, it's another to assume the voters weren't paying attention just because they voted the way they did.

[wally_wabash]

It's one thing to argue against the pick, it's another to assume the voters weren't paying attention just because they voted the way they did.

[AndOne]

Or maybe they genuinely thought the Wheaton supporting cast was better than Aston Francis allowed them to appear?  I'm certainly biased as a voter and I don't know who any of those five are, but it's entirely possible they wanted to give the rest of the squad some credit.  Personally, I don't think the last five or six teams on my ballot are all that strong and there could've been a couple dozen other names on those lines.  I don't think Wheaton is one of them, but I don't think it's bonkers outrageous for someone else to think so.  I'm wildly wrong about a number of teams every year and the truth is, we just don't know how good any of these teams will be.

St. John Fisher got ranked.  I didn't vote for them. I don't think that squad is demonstrably better than what Wheaton has returning.

Keep in mind that Wheaton's best returning player, Luke Anthony, probably won't even be available for the first few games of the season. He is currently quarterbacking Wheaton's rather formidable football team who, barring a miracle, will finish the season undefeated. Should they reach the national championship game, Anthony would miss the first 10 games, or 40% of the regular season!
Additionally, Spencer Peterson, who likely would have been Wheaton's third best returning player, sustained an athletic career ending injury during the football season naturally resulting in his being unavailable for the entire basketball season.

It just seems Top 25 voters should have been aware of these well known facts, and having this knowledge would have rendered any Pre-Season Poll votes for Wheaton as being rather unfathomable.

[SpringSt7]

Or maybe they genuinely thought the Wheaton supporting cast was better than Aston Francis allowed them to appear?  I'm certainly biased as a voter and I don't know who any of those five are, but it's entirely possible they wanted to give the rest of the squad some credit.  Personally, I don't think the last five or six teams on my ballot are all that strong and there could've been a couple dozen other names on those lines.  I don't think Wheaton is one of them, but I don't think it's bonkers outrageous for someone else to think so.  I'm wildly wrong about a number of teams every year and the truth is, we just don't know how good any of these teams will be.

St. John Fisher got ranked.  I didn't vote for them. I don't think that squad is demonstrably better than what Wheaton has returning.

Keep in mind that Wheaton's best returning player, Luke Anthony, probably won't even be available for the first few games of the season. He is currently quarterbacking Wheaton's rather formidable football team who, barring a miracle, will finish the season undefeated. Should they reach the national championship game, Anthony would miss the first 10 games, or 40% of the regular season!
Additionally, Spencer Peterson, who likely would have been Wheaton's third best returning player, sustained an athletic career ending injury during the football season naturally resulting in his being unavailable for the entire basketball season.

It just seems Top 25 voters should have been aware of these well known facts, and having this knowledge would have rendered any Pre-Season Poll votes for Wheaton as being rather unfathomable.

These would be the exact things that are perhaps tough to know for every pollster--we don't even know who every pollster is and what their other obligations are--be they full time sports journalists or other such things that take up their time in the fall. Could we maybe just chalk this up to 5 people paying some respect to a team that made it to the Final Four last year?

We're two years removed from Babson being preseason 7th and receiving the only 2 1st place votes that didn't go to Whitman. I don't want this to be a Flannery vs. Francis debate but he made just as much of an impact if not more the year before.

[Gregory Sager]

Or maybe they genuinely thought the Wheaton supporting cast was better than Aston Francis allowed them to appear?  I'm certainly biased as a voter and I don't know who any of those five are, but it's entirely possible they wanted to give the rest of the squad some credit.  Personally, I don't think the last five or six teams on my ballot are all that strong and there could've been a couple dozen other names on those lines.  I don't think Wheaton is one of them, but I don't think it's bonkers outrageous for someone else to think so.  I'm wildly wrong about a number of teams every year and the truth is, we just don't know how good any of these teams will be.

St. John Fisher got ranked.  I didn't vote for them. I don't think that squad is demonstrably better than what Wheaton has returning.

Keep in mind that Wheaton's best returning player, Luke Anthony, probably won't even be available for the first few games of the season. He is currently quarterbacking Wheaton's rather formidable football team who, barring a miracle, will finish the season undefeated. Should they reach the national championship game, Anthony would miss the first 10 games, or 40% of the regular season!
Additionally, Spencer Peterson, who likely would have been Wheaton's third best returning player, sustained an athletic career ending injury during the football season naturally resulting in his being unavailable for the entire basketball season.

It just seems Top 25 voters should have been aware of these well known facts, and having this knowledge would have rendered any Pre-Season Poll votes for Wheaton as being rather unfathomable.

Exactly. And the point that I mentioned earlier, which obviously needs to be restated, is that Pat has informed us that the 45 ballot points for Wheaton represent five pollsters. That averages out to nine points for Wheaton from each pollster. Since each spot on the Top 25 poll adds up to 26 -- 25 points for a #1 vote, 24 points for a #2 vote, 23 points for a #3 vote, etc., until you get to one point for a #25 vote -- that means that those five pollsters, on average, placed Wheaton at #17 on their ballots.

A Wheaton without Aston Francis, Luke Peters, Spencer Peterson, Kobe Eichelberger, Trevor Gunter, and Luke Anthony is a Wheaton that has lost 77% of its scoring, 60% of its rebounding, and 65% of its assists from last season.

Ryan, do you really think that putting Wheaton 17th on a ballot is an informed move?

[Gregory Sager]

Or maybe they genuinely thought the Wheaton supporting cast was better than Aston Francis allowed them to appear?  I'm certainly biased as a voter and I don't know who any of those five are, but it's entirely possible they wanted to give the rest of the squad some credit.  Personally, I don't think the last five or six teams on my ballot are all that strong and there could've been a couple dozen other names on those lines.  I don't think Wheaton is one of them, but I don't think it's bonkers outrageous for someone else to think so.  I'm wildly wrong about a number of teams every year and the truth is, we just don't know how good any of these teams will be.

St. John Fisher got ranked.  I didn't vote for them. I don't think that squad is demonstrably better than what Wheaton has returning.

Keep in mind that Wheaton's best returning player, Luke Anthony, probably won't even be available for the first few games of the season. He is currently quarterbacking Wheaton's rather formidable football team who, barring a miracle, will finish the season undefeated. Should they reach the national championship game, Anthony would miss the first 10 games, or 40% of the regular season!
Additionally, Spencer Peterson, who likely would have been Wheaton's third best returning player, sustained an athletic career ending injury during the football season naturally resulting in his being unavailable for the entire basketball season.

It just seems Top 25 voters should have been aware of these well known facts, and having this knowledge would have rendered any Pre-Season Poll votes for Wheaton as being rather unfathomable.

These would be the exact things that are perhaps tough to know for every pollster--we don't even know who every pollster is and what their other obligations are--be they full time sports journalists or other such things that take up their time in the fall.

This is exactly why Pat makes those information packets for each pollster.

Could we maybe just chalk this up to 5 people paying some respect to a team that made it to the Final Four last year?

You say that as though it exonerates them from their responsibility to examine this year's team before putting that team on their ballot.

That sort of bleedover from the year before is precisely what Pat's trying to avoid with his preseason poll. "Paying some respect to a team that made it to the Final Four last year" is Street & Smith thinking (which, as D-Mac has said, has now been recognized by that magazine as a flaw to be corrected).

[Titan Q]

Or maybe they genuinely thought the Wheaton supporting cast was better than Aston Francis allowed them to appear? 

I guess it is possible, but I don't buy it.

I mean, the best guy in the supporting cast graduated too -- 6-3 PG Luke Peters.  (The only other All-CCIW guy - https://cciw.org/sports/2019/2/18/MBB_0218192558.aspx.). So they are voting for a few returning role players, the best of which is the QB of the football team who won't be on the team for a few weeks? 

If I'm one of those voters I'd rather just admit I didn't pay any attention (vs making a case for CCIW #6 in the preseason poll).

[AndOne]

Could we maybe just chalk this up to 5 people paying some respect to a team that made it to the Final Four last year?

You say that as though it exonerates them from their responsibility to examine this year's team before putting that team on their ballot.

That sort of bleedover from the year before is precisely what Pat's trying to avoid with his preseason poll. "Paying some respect to a team that made it to the Final Four last year" is Street & Smith thinking (which, as D-Mac has said, has now been recognized by that magazine as a flaw to be corrected).
[/quote]

Or maybe they genuinely thought the Wheaton supporting cast was better than Aston Francis allowed them to appear? 

I guess it is possible, but I don't buy it.

I mean, the best guy in the supporting cast graduated too -- 6-3 PG Luke Peters.  (The only other All-CCIW guy - https://cciw.org/sports/2019/2/18/MBB_0218192558.aspx.). So they are voting for a few returning role players, the best of which is the QB of the football team who won't be on the team for a few weeks? 

If I'm one of those voters I'd rather just admit I didn't pay any attention (vs making a case for CCIW #6 in the preseason poll).

And, actually, I would submit that some "respect to a team that made it to the Final Four last year" WAS paid to Wheaton in the form of Luke Peters being named to the CCIW All-Conf Team.

[Titan Q]

And, actually, I would submit that some "respect to a team that made it to the Final Four last year" WAS paid to Wheaton in the form of Luke Peters being named to the CCIW All-Conf Team.

The CCIW all-conference team was announced before any NCAA tournament games were played.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Nobody voted for them, but Johns Hopkins is putting a hurting on Loyola (MD) tonight.  Up 19 at the half.

https://watchstadium.com/live/johns-hopkins-at-loyola-maryland/

[thebear]

"You don't always have to win every game. You just have to win the right ones. 😏 (AndOne)"

Except if you are Jerry Welsh [1985-86] or Bo Ryan [1994-95 and 1997-98] :-)

.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Not currently in the conversation, but certainly an oft-represented coach.  Big news for D3 hoops!

https://www.godiplomats.com/sports/m-baskbl/2019-20/releases/20191104v3nw9h?fbclid=IwAR1NJqLetv4FNj3kxTmWJN8U3H9JcJENhKsmDuJwusmBzTonNWyF2sbBdUM