Top 25 talk

[Colby Hoops]

This is not my final ballot (I need to think about some more), but it is probably pretty close.

1. Swarthmore (4-0)
2. Emory (4-0)
3. Amherst (3-0)
4. Wittenberg (2-0)
5. Middlebury (5-0)
6. Nichols (4-0)
7. UW-Platteville (4-0)
8. St. Thomas (3-1)
9. Wash U (4-1)
10. Nebraska Wesleyan (4-1)
11. Johns Hopkins (4-0)
12. Elmhurst (3-0)
13. Christopher Newport 5-1)
14. St. John's (3-1)
15. UW-Oshkosh (2-2)
16. Carthage (5-0)
17. North Central (1-1)
18. Wooster (3-0)
19. Marietta (3-0)
20. Randolph-Macon (6-0)
21. Whitman (4-1)
22. Augsburg (2-0)
23. Whitworth (5-1)
24. Augustana (3-1)
25. Centre (4-1)
-----
Next up (watch list):

Wabash (3-1)
Oswego St (3-0)
Hamilton (4-0)
Illinois Wesleyan (4-1)
WPI (5-1)
Guilford (4-1)

(watch list not final/complete)

I do not envy this task, particularly so early in the season! I have an admittedly narrow view as I mostly watch Northeast teams. I'd add Tufts and Colby (obviously biased on that one!) to your watch list as well -- both have had impressive starts. I'd probably have both ahead of Hamilton to this point, but that's splitting hairs.

I'd also say Nichols is due for a fall at some point. They've barely beat New England College and Anna Maria -- two teams that have been blown out by other good teams to this point. The Anna Maria one is particularly inexplicable, as they've lost by large margins to every other good team they've played and don't have a win yet.

Just my two cents. Thanks as always for the time and thought you put into these, I'm always impressed.

[Titan Q]

Games today that could impact my ballot:

* Nebraska Wesleyan at Chicago, 1pm ET

* St. Thomas vs DePauw (at Chicago), 5pm ET

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

This is not my final ballot (I need to think about some more), but it is probably pretty close.

1. Swarthmore (4-0)
2. Emory (4-0)
3. Amherst (3-0)
4. Wittenberg (2-0)
5. Middlebury (5-0)
6. Nichols (4-0)
7. UW-Platteville (4-0)
8. St. Thomas (3-1)
9. Wash U (4-1)
10. Nebraska Wesleyan (4-1)
11. Johns Hopkins (4-0)
12. Elmhurst (3-0)
13. Christopher Newport 5-1)
14. St. John's (3-1)
15. UW-Oshkosh (2-2)
16. Carthage (5-0)
17. North Central (1-1)
18. Wooster (3-0)
19. Marietta (3-0)
20. Randolph-Macon (6-0)
21. Whitman (4-1)
22. Augsburg (2-0)
23. Whitworth (5-1)
24. Augustana (3-1)
25. Centre (4-1)
-----
Next up (watch list):

Wabash (3-1)
Oswego St (3-0)
Hamilton (4-0)
Illinois Wesleyan (4-1)
WPI (5-1)
Guilford (4-1)

(watch list not final/complete)

I do not envy this task, particularly so early in the season! I have an admittedly narrow view as I mostly watch Northeast teams. I'd add Tufts and Colby (obviously biased on that one!) to your watch list as well -- both have had impressive starts. I'd probably have both ahead of Hamilton to this point, but that's splitting hairs.

I'd also say Nichols is due for a fall at some point. They've barely beat New England College and Anna Maria -- two teams that have been blown out by other good teams to this point. The Anna Maria one is particularly inexplicable, as they've lost by large margins to every other good team they've played and don't have a win yet.

Just my two cents. Thanks as always for the time and thought you put into these, I'm always impressed.

Just a reminder: Nichols has been without their starting center for several games now.  They don't have a ton of depth, so that's big for them.  To pull of a Top 10 season with the team they have is a high degree of difficulty, but they certainly have the ability to do it.

It'll be interesting to see the conversation between Bob and myself on Hoopsville tonight.  As you might expect, his ballot skews a little to the Midwest and mine skews a little to the East Coast.  I feel like we're still two weeks out from really having a good handle on what teams can do.  We also have to remember the ballot is not about who's playing well now - Pat always tells us we're attempting to gauge what we think the final ballot will look like in March April. 

I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to a team like Nichols that (I think) expects Cunningham back at some point, vs a team like UT-Dallas with a star who's return is still very much in question.  I'm also willing to forgive Oshkosh a couple bad shooting nights against good teams.  That good will won't last forever, but there just aren't that many teams more capable than they are.

[CollegeGolf18]

This is not my final ballot (I need to think about some more), but it is probably pretty close.

12. Elmhurst (3-0)

25. Centre (4-1)
-----
Watch List:
Wabash (3-1)

Centre beat Wabash on a last-second basket, would have been a good win for Wabash. Centre is very deserving of a spot IMO, although I'm not sure I agree with Wabash dropping out after losing on a last-second shot.

I think the Wabash/Elmhurst game next Saturday will tell us a lot about both squads.

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (Nearly Complete)
St Thomas/DePauw set to tip off shortly; I'll edit that result in later this evening.


Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	614	Swarthmore	4-0	won at Eastern, 100-74; won at Neumann, 86-76; def. TCNJ, 88-81; def. Stockton, 84-54
#2	563	UW-Oshkosh	2-2	won at #17 Augustana, 74-67; won at #3 North Central (Ill.), 76-66; LOST at Carthage, 57-64; LOST to Elmhurst, 92-97
#3	510	North Central (Ill.)	1-1	LOST to #2 UW-Oshkosh, 66-76; def. Greenville, 122-103
#4	469	Amherst	3-0	won at Lasell, 86-48; def. Elmira, 89-33; def. Fitchburg State, 84-62
#5	455	Wittenberg	2-0	won at Brooklyn, 87-78; def. Mount St. Joseph, 92-58
#6	418	Emory	4-0	won at #19 Guilford, 89-67; won at Berry, 99-85; def. Sewanee, 94-70; def. Oglethorpe, 84-60
#7	386	Washington U.	4-1	won at Illinois College, 85-76; won at UW-Whitewater, 90-86; LOST at #29 UW-Platteville, 63-76; def. Coe, 93-79; def. UW-Eau Claire, 56-55
#8	349	Nebraska Wesleyan	5-1	def. (n) #12 St. John's, 78-56; def. UW-Superior, 87-51; def. McMurry, 108-86; def. Hardin-Simmons, 88-81; LOST to (n) #15 St. Thomas, 63-82; won at Chicago, 81-79
#9	338	Christopher Newport	5-1	LOST at Johns Hopkins, 74-78; def. Shenandoah, 85-62; def. (n) Marywood, 87-56; won at Franklin and Marshall, 74-66; def. Randolph, 66-58; def. Lynchburg, 79-77
#10	333	Nichols	4-0	def. (n) #39 Eastern Connecticut, 74-56; def. (n) New England College, 107-104; won at Anna Maria, 82-77; def. Worcester State, 89-53
#11	313	Texas-Dallas	2-2	LOST at UTA, 50-84; won at Redlands, 74-71 OT; LOST at Whittier, 86-91; def. Trinity (Texas), 78-62
#12	295	St. John's	3-1	LOST to (n) #8 Nebraska Wesleyan, 56-78; won at Marian, 71-43; won at Minnesota-Morris, 86-80; def. Carleton, 79-60
#13	282	Middlebury	5-0	def. Bridgewater State, 85-81; def. Wentworth, 75-64; won at T#47 Keene State, 92-82; won at SUNY-Canton, 89-68; won at Skidmore, 73-56
#14	269	Wabash	3-1	LOST to Centre, 76-77; def. Earlham, 85-72; def. Greenville, 137-131; won at Carroll, 86-78
#15	245	St. Thomas	4-1	won at #20 Whitman, 87-79; LOST at #40 Whitworth, 64-85; won at St. Scholastica, 110-64; def. (n) #8 Nebraska Wesleyan, 82-63; def. (n) DePauw, 84-66
#16	239	WPI	5-1	def. T#47 Brandeis, 55-46; LOST to New England College, 73-78; def. #39 Eastern Connecticut, 88-63; def. #28 Salem State, 91-50; def. (n) Eastern Nazarene, 83-69; won at Mass-Boston, 68-62
#17	229	Augustana	3-1	LOST to #2 UW-Oshkosh, 67-74; def. Alma, 74-67; def. Calvin, 70-67; def. T#47 Loras, 88-59
#18	227	Marietta	3-0	def. Eastern Mennonite, 92-53; def. Mount St. Joseph, 96-71; won at Emory and Henry, 89-65
#19	216	Guilford	5-1	LOST to #6 Emory, 67-89; won at Greensboro, 87-75; def. Mary Hardin-Baylor, 60-52; def. N.C. Wesleyan, 67-50; def. Averett, 76-61; def. Berry, 73-56
#20	193	Whitman	4-1	def. Montclair State, 114-104; LOST to #15 St. Thomas, 79-87; def. Cal Lutheran, 106-69; def. (n) Sul Ross State, 94-78; def. (n) Concordia (Texas), 101-88
#21	167	Wooster	3-0	def. Medaille, 110-100; def. Hiram, 98-70; def. Wilmington, 86-65
#22	128	Baldwin Wallace	2-2	def. Bethany, 95-53; def. Hiram, 81-71; LOST at Westminster (Pa.), 68-78; LOST at Hobart, 56-68
#23	113	Augsburg	2-0	def. Northland, 102-54; won at Concordia-Moorhead, 75-55
#24	112	Randolph-Macon	6-0	def. (n) Washington College, 74-47; won at St. Mary's (Md.), 84-40; def. Ursinus, 54-50; won at Messiah, 63-50; won at Washington and Lee, 79-68; won at Hampden-Sydney, 82-64
#25	93	St. John Fisher	3-2	LOST to Union, 71-89; def. (n) Cazenovia, 98-81; won at Hilbert, 97-62; LOST at T#41 Rochester, 75-78; def. (n) Rochester Tech, 80-70

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	83	Oswego	3-0	def. (n) Ithaca, 85-80; def. (n) Keystone, 92-81; won at Clarkson, 80-72
#27	59	Hamilton	4-0	def. (n) TCNJ, 88-81; won at Drew, 88-80; def. Bard, 101-57; won at T#47 Keene State, 83-70
#28	58	Salem State	1-4	LOST to (n) Suffolk, 81-94; def. (n) Anna Maria, 89-76; LOST to Mass-Dartmouth, 87-91; LOST to T#47 Keene State, 91-99; LOST at #16 WPI, 50-91
#29	54	UW-Platteville	4-0	def. Finlandia, 112-49; def. Viterbo, 70-67; def. #7 Washington U., 76-63; def. Concordia-Chicago, 89-72
#30	49	York (Pa.)	3-2	won at Dickinson, 90-63; def. (n) Johnson and Wales, 84-55; LOST at Roanoke, 59-74; def. Lancaster Bible, 93-71; LOST at Johns Hopkins, 57-67
#31	45	Wheaton (Ill.)	3-1	def. Principia, 90-71; def. UW-River Falls, 86-60; LOST to Lake Forest, 75-78; def. Olivet, 81-51
#32	35	MIT	3-2	LOST at T#36 Endicott, 64-100; LOST to Mass-Boston, 64-71; def. Eastern Nazarene, 66-64; won at Pine Manor, 95-49; won at Lasell, 84-70
#33	31	Claremont-Mudd-Scripps	1-1	LOST at #40 Whitworth, 83-93; def. (n) George Fox, 80-72
#34	29	New Jersey City	2-1	LOST to Stevens, 75-81; def. Mount St. Vincent, 81-62; won at Farmingdale State, 66-61
#35	24	Scranton	4-1	def. Stevenson, 67-54; def. Houghton, 89-69; LOST to William Paterson, 69-75; won at Wilkes, 91-62; won at Cabrini, 93-86
T#36	18	Endicott	3-2	def. #32 MIT, 100-64; LOST to (n) Springfield, 82-92; def. (n) Lesley, 102-69; LOST at Eastern Nazarene, 79-91; won at Bridgewater State, 91-80
T#36	18	Mount Union	2-2	def. Albion, 71-52; def. Carnegie Mellon, 94-72; LOST at Adrian, 77-80; LOST at Trine, 78-80
#38	15	Pomona-Pitzer	1-2	LOST at Westmont, 76-84; LOST at Biola, 62-66; def. Cal Miramar, 116-78
#39	14	Eastern Connecticut	0-3	LOST to (n) #10 Nichols, 56-74; LOST at #16 WPI, 63-88; LOST at Johnson and Wales, 61-78
#40	12	Whitworth	5-1	def. #33 Claremont-Mudd-Scripps, 93-83; def. Trinity (Texas), 96-73; def. Cal Lutheran, 105-51; def. #15 St. Thomas, 85-64; LOST to (n) UW-Eau Claire, 75-77; def. (n) Coe, 73-59
T#41	5	Rochester	5-0	won at SUNY Geneseo, 72-61; def. Misericordia, 77-56; def. Heidelberg, 75-52; def. #25 St. John Fisher, 78-75; def. Nazareth, 77-56
T#41	5	SUNY Oneonta	1-3	LOST to Alvernia, 70-71; LOST to Wesley, 70-86; def. #44 Williams, 74-69 OT; LOST at Hartwick, 78-82
#43	4	Tufts	4-0	won at Emerson, 103-82; def. Mass-Dartmouth, 91-78; def. Lasell, 96-65; def. St. Joseph (Conn.), 89-71
#44	3	Williams	3-1	def. Worcester State, 70-51; def. SUNYIT, 83-48; LOST at T#41 SUNY Oneonta, 69-74 OT; def. Wesleyan, 77-52
T#45	2	Brockport	2-1	LOST at Morrisville State, 70-73; def. Hobart, 75-74; won at Medaille, 96-84
T#45	2	Covenant	3-1	def. (n) Birmingham-Southern, 71-66; won at Sewanee, 71-62; def. Birmingham-Southern, 88-72; LOST at Centre, 58-78
T#47	1	Brandeis	3-2	LOST at #16 WPI, 46-55; won at Rivier, 91-56; def. Emerson, 76-74; LOST at Suffolk, 57-72; def. Rhode Island College, 81-75
T#47	1	Keene State	1-3	LOST at Springfield, 101-106 OT; won at #28 Salem State, 99-91; LOST to #13 Middlebury, 82-92; LOST to #27 Hamilton, 70-83
T#47	1	Loras	4-1	def. Concordia-Chicago, 108-85; def. Blackburn, 88-75; def. Concordia (Wis.), 85-65; LOST at #17 Augustana, 59-88; won at St. Scholastica, 88-67
T#47	1	Yeshiva	5-1	LOST at Occidental, 60-72; won at Caltech, 77-58; won at Salisbury, 79-71; won at Washington College, 78-68; def. Brooklyn, 98-74; won at Mount St. Vincent, 102-73

[Titan Q]

This is not my final ballot (I need to think about some more), but it is probably pretty close.

12. Elmhurst (3-0)

25. Centre (4-1)
-----
Watch List:
Wabash (3-1)

Centre beat Wabash on a last-second basket, would have been a good win for Wabash. Centre is very deserving of a spot IMO, although I'm not sure I agree with Wabash dropping out after losing on a last-second shot.

Which team on my ballot would you take out to put Wabash in?

1. Swarthmore (4-0)
2. Emory (4-0)
3. Amherst (3-0)
4. Wittenberg (2-0)
5. Middlebury (5-0)
6. Nichols (4-0)
7. UW-Platteville (4-0)
8. St. Thomas (3-1)
9. Wash U (4-1)
10. Nebraska Wesleyan (4-1)
11. Johns Hopkins (4-0)
12. Elmhurst (3-0)
13. Christopher Newport 5-1)
14. St. John's (3-1)
15. UW-Oshkosh (2-2)
16. Carthage (5-0)
17. North Central (1-1)
18. Wooster (3-0)
19. Marietta (3-0)
20. Randolph-Macon (6-0)
21. Whitman (4-1)
22. Augsburg (2-0)
23. Whitworth (5-1)
24. Augustana (3-1)
25. Centre (4-1)

[Titan Q]

How They Fared (Nearly Complete)

Thanks for doing this again, Darryl...it is very helpful.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Each season there are a few teams that get out to starts that makes everyone turn their heads. There are always a few "wait, what?!" "They beat who?!" And even a, "are they seriously (say record)?!"

Yes, they are. And thus we should talk to them.

On Sunday's Hoopsville, hear from a few coaches who have their teams out to blazing starts. UW-Platteville women are undefeated with wins over No. 18 Chicago and No. 4 Wartburg. William Peace women have equaled their win total from last season and defeated No. 15 Christopher Newport. And Oberlin men started undefeated and off to one of the program's best starts.

Hear from each of their coaches on what is working so well early in the season and if they can continue to surprise and steal headlines the rest of the season.

Plus, Bob Quillman and Ryan Scott return with a look at where the Top 25 now sits with the first in-season poll coming up on Monday. Find out who Bob, Ryan, and Dave select for their Dubious, Deep Dive, and Debatable selections are ahead of the Week 1 poll.

Hoopsville is presented by D3hoops.com and airs from the WBCA/NABC Studio. You can watch Sunday's show LIVE starting at 7:00 p.m. ET here: www.d3hoopsville.com or http://bit.ly/34fV7IZ.

If you have questions about Division III basketball, feel free to send them and we will answer them on a the show. Email them to hoopsville@d3hoops.com or use any of the social media options.

Guests Schedule (order subject to change):
- Kelly McNiff, UW-Platteville women's coach
- Grahm Smith, William Peace women's coach
- Isaiah Cavaco, Oberlin men's coach
- Bob Quillman & Ryan Scott, Top 25 Double-Take

If you enjoy the show via the podcasts, choose your favorite avenue to listen and/or subscribe via the the following four avenues (click on the images when necessary):
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[CollegeGolf18]

This is not my final ballot (I need to think about some more), but it is probably pretty close.

12. Elmhurst (3-0)

25. Centre (4-1)
-----
Watch List:
Wabash (3-1)

Centre beat Wabash on a last-second basket, would have been a good win for Wabash. Centre is very deserving of a spot IMO, although I'm not sure I agree with Wabash dropping out after losing on a last-second shot.

Which team on my ballot would you take out to put Wabash in?

1. Swarthmore (4-0)
2. Emory (4-0)
3. Amherst (3-0)
4. Wittenberg (2-0)
5. Middlebury (5-0)
6. Nichols (4-0)
7. UW-Platteville (4-0)
8. St. Thomas (3-1)
9. Wash U (4-1)
10. Nebraska Wesleyan (4-1)
11. Johns Hopkins (4-0)
12. Elmhurst (3-0)
13. Christopher Newport 5-1)
14. St. John's (3-1)
15. UW-Oshkosh (2-2)
16. Carthage (5-0)
17. North Central (1-1)
18. Wooster (3-0)
19. Marietta (3-0)
20. Randolph-Macon (6-0)
21. Whitman (4-1)
22. Augsburg (2-0)
23. Whitworth (5-1)
24. Augustana (3-1)
25. Centre (4-1)

That, I don't know without pouring over each team like yourself.

I guess I tend to take into account the preseason thoughts a little bit more.

I guess I just see a team that returned all five starters and went 22-6 last year losing a game to a very good team.

[WUPHF]

I do think there is an argument for Wabash ahead of Centre.

Incidentally, I would say Augustana ahead of Whitworth.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I've been frustrated by the sample size at this point in the year.  Who knows who's better at this point?

[CCD3Basketball]

At this point, it's just as much about going with your gut as it is looking at some of the early results. By the second week of December stuff will sort itself out a little more.

[Mr. Ypsi]

At this point, it's just as much about going with your gut as it is looking at some of the early results. By the second week of December stuff will sort itself out a little more.

Yes, it STARTS to sort out about then.  But the early uncertainty (where reputation can vastly outweigh actual results) is why, when I started and ran the Posters' Poll, the first ballot was not until early January.

[PauldingLightUP]

Great top 25 talk tonight gents. Oshkosh is an interesting team to say the least. I'm just not sure Elmhurst dominated Oshkosh Q. The Buejays dominated the first six minutes yes, but not the game. It's not like Bluejays put the game away early in the second and benches were emptied. Oshkosh made their runs and it was a one possession game under a minute. Oshkosh shot poorly to start both of these last two and just couldn't fully recover. I do agree their ball movement isn't as clean this year, great observation.

Just the way the schedule works, it's hard to envision Oshkosh heading to Atlanta with more than 2 loses. SNC and a MIAA weekend are interesting road tests however.

[Titan Q]

That, I don't know without pouring over each team like yourself.

I guess I tend to take into account the preseason thoughts a little bit more.

I guess I just see a team that returned all five starters and went 22-6 last year losing a game to a very good team.

I think Wabash is a very good team and they were very much in consideration for me (they are my #26).  But when I worked through my list I simply found 25 teams I liked more for this ballot (listed above) -- including Centre, which has a head-to-head win over Wabash in Crawfordsville.  I couldn't think of a good reason to put Wabash ahead of Centre.

The Wabash/Elmhurst game on Nov. 30 is big.