Top 25 talk

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (COMPLETE)

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	621	Swarthmore	9-0	def. #11 Johns Hopkins, 67-62
#2	592	Emory	9-0	IDLE
#3	546	Wittenberg	7-0	won at Bridgewater (Va.), 96-74; def. (n) Eastern Mennonite, 80-59
#4	528	Middlebury	9-0	IDLE
#5	493	St. Thomas	8-1	won at #28 Augsburg, 89-81
#6	467	Nebraska Wesleyan	10-1	won at Wartburg, 85-69
#7	466	Marietta	6-0	IDLE
#8	464	Randolph-Macon	9-0	IDLE
#9	416	Washington U.	8-1	won at Fontbonne, 86-44
#10	415	UW-Platteville	9-0	won at Bethel, 65-54
#11	349	Johns Hopkins	8-1	LOST at #1 Swarthmore, 62-67
#12	326	Elmhurst	6-1	LOST to #32 North Central (Ill.), 74-76
#13	324	St. John's	7-1	won at Gustavus Adolphus, 66-52
#14	248	Babson	9-0	IDLE
#15	218	UW-La Crosse	7-0	def. Ripon, 54-53
#16	176	Whitworth	5-1	IDLE
#17	160	Nichols	7-2	won at Gordon, 76-73 OT; LOST at #33 Hamilton, 67-92
#18	138	UW-Stevens Point	7-1	LOST to Bethel, 46-64; won at Ripon, 72-49
#19	110	Colby	9-0	IDLE
#20	98	Guilford	8-2	IDLE
#21	97	Springfield	8-1	LOST at #25 Amherst, 70-76; won at Westfield State, 80-67
#22	96	Carthage	7-1	def. Alma, 98-94
#23	94	Augustana	6-3	def. MacMurray, 105-63; LOST to T#40 Illinois Wesleyan, 67-74 OT
#24	86	Benedictine	8-1	IDLE
#25	78	Amherst	6-2	def. #21 Springfield, 76-70; def. Pine Manor, 101-51

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	73	Wooster	6-1	won at St. John Fisher, 81-80
#27	63	UW-Oshkosh	5-3	IDLE
#28	61	Augsburg	5-2	LOST to #5 St. Thomas, 81-89
#29	57	Christopher Newport	7-4	LOST at #36 Virginia Wesleyan, 64-74
#30	49	WPI	8-2	IDLE
#31	48	UW-Eau Claire	8-2	def. Lawrence, 72-63; LOST at St. Norbert, 58-70
#32	33	North Central (Ill.)	7-3	won at Aurora, 83-53; won at #12 Elmhurst, 76-74
#33	20	Hamilton	9-1	def. #17 Nichols, 92-67
#34	17	Whitman	5-2	IDLE
#35	15	Rochester	8-1	def. Ithaca, 68-63
#36	14	Virginia Wesleyan	8-1	def. #29 Christopher Newport, 74-64
#37	13	Loras	8-2	LOST to (n) Adrian, 61-82; won at Trine, 72-70
#38	10	Muhlenberg	8-2	LOST at Haverford, 62-68
#39	9	Wheaton (Ill.)	8-2	won at Calvin, 76-67; def. North Park, 84-50
T#40	7	Yeshiva	10-1	won at Eastern Connecticut, 83-75
T#40	7	Pomona-Pitzer	6-2	def. Westcliff University, 83-68
T#40	7	Illinois Wesleyan	7-2	won at #23 Augustana, 74-67 OT
#43	5	Mount Union	6-2	def. Wilmington, 84-74
#44	4	Centre	7-2	IDLE
#45	3	Mary Hardin-Baylor	6-2	LOST to St. Thomas (Texas), 77-87
T#46	2	Albertus Magnus	9-1	def. St. Lawrence, 86-61
T#46	2	Widener	10-0	def. Lycoming, 57-54

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

The 2019-20 season may end up seeing a lot of Division III coaches hit significant milestones throughout. On Sunday's Hoopsville, Dave chats with three coaches who have already won milestone games this season.

Whether it's 500 or 600, the milestone is a sign of a coach who not only has been coaching a long time, but also successful at coaching. That is certainly the case for the three coaches on Sunday' show.

Plus, we look ahead at the final Top 25 polls before the holidays. Who might move up or down and which teams should either get more or less attention.

Hoopsville is presented by D3hoops.com and airs from the WBCA/NABC Studio. You can watch Sunday's show On Demand in the following ways:
- Main page: www.d3hoops.com/hoopsville
- Show page: http://bit.ly/2RWf5FE (or www.d3hoops.com/hoopsville/archives/2019-20/dec15)
- Facebook Live Simulcast: www.facebook.com/Hoopsville
- YouTube Simulcast: www.youtube.com/d3hoopsville
- Team1 Sports: www.team1sports.com/Hoopsville/
- Team1 Sports app (Android TV, Amazon Fire, Apple TV, Roku) - you will either find it under the "live" section or search for the Hoopsville channel

Guests Schedule (order subject to change):
- Grey Giovanine, Augustana men's head coach
- Dave Niland, PSU-Behrend men's head coach
- Mary Beth Spirk, Moravian women's head coach
- Ryan Scott, Top 25 Double-Take

If you enjoy the show via the podcasts, choose your favorite avenue to listen and/or subscribe via the the following four avenues (click on the images when necessary):
SoundCloud: www.soundcloud.com/hoopsville








We also have the podcast now on Tune-In and others coming. We will update them once we have better abilities to do so.

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[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

With the numbers figured after yesterday's games, all of my Top 25 is in Massey's Top 50.  I don't always agree with his specific rankings, but generally he's usually spot on.  I can't think of a year where any legitimate Top 25 contender was outside Massey's Top 50.  Obviously his rankings get better as the year goes along, but they seem to be rounding into form pretty well right now.

[Fifth and Putnam]

The one Massey Top 25 team that kind of oddly stands out to me is St. Thomas (TX) at 21.

[WUPHF]

The one Massey Top 25 team that kind of oddly stands out to me is St. Thomas (TX) at 21.

Its the carry-over data from last season...

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

The one Massey Top 25 team that kind of oddly stands out to me is St. Thomas (TX) at 21.

Its the carry-over data from last season...

They finished 707th overall last year as part of the NAIA and currently they're 544th overall so I don't think it's much to do with the carry-over. They've beaten UMHB (a team that picked up a couple votes in last week's poll), and had a 10 point loss (in an exhibition but counts in Massey) to a D1 team. Their other four games were all big wins (2 non D3, 2 Concordia TX). It will be interesting to see how they stack up against Rice on Thursday in another exhibition.
I know they're not NCAA tourney eligible but I think they could create some havoc in the SCAC.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

The one Massey Top 25 team that kind of oddly stands out to me is St. Thomas (TX) at 21.

Its the carry-over data from last season...

They finished 707th overall last year as part of the NAIA and currently they're 544th overall so I don't think it's much to do with the carry-over. They've beaten UMHB (a team that picked up a couple votes in last week's poll), and had a 10 point loss (in an exhibition but counts in Massey) to a D1 team. Their other four games were all big wins (2 non D3, 2 Concordia TX). It will be interesting to see how they stack up against Rice on Thursday in another exhibition.
I know they're not NCAA tourney eligible but I think they could create some havoc in the SCAC.

The women's team is also very good. I believe both squads will be eligible for the SCAC tourney, just not the AQ if they win.

[PauldingLightUP]

Number 19 Benedictine has already lost, 72-90 to Concordia Chicago in NACC play.

[WUPHF]

They finished 707th overall last year as part of the NAIA and currently they're 544th overall so I don't think it's much to do with the carry-over.

It depends how the data is used.

And it is not clear to me that we know how it is used.

For example, some people think that non-Division III games are figured in to the rankings.  I am not sure for reasons I mentioned on the CCIW board.

St. Thomas finished 24th in the NAIA last season.

I would be surprised if if the 707 overall ranking matters.

I would not be surprised if there are flaws in bringing over the data when a school moves divisions or sanctioning bodies.

[smedindy]

No. Massey counts a game that counts for one as a game that counts for both. And it's agnostic of division. It's how you do against the CB universe (which includes EVERYTHING)

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

They finished 707th overall last year as part of the NAIA and currently they're 544th overall so I don't think it's much to do with the carry-over.

It depends how the data is used.

And it is not clear to me that we know how it is used.

For example, some people think that non-Division III games are figured in to the rankings.  I am not sure for reasons I mentioned on the CCIW board.

St. Thomas finished 24th in the NAIA last season.

I would be surprised if if the 707 overall ranking matters.

I would not be surprised if there are flaws in bringing over the data when a school moves divisions or sanctioning bodies.

Why would the overall ranking not matter? That's how Massey ranks all teams regardless of division or affiliation. There is no difference in the data regarding what division or sanctioning body they're part of. It's all just 1 big list of teams. NAIA isn't isolated from everyone like NESCAC football (which does cause issues in those rankings)

Currently 24th in the NAIA I rankings (where St Thomas finished last season) is Texas Wesleyan who is ranked 697th overall. To compare that to D3, LeTourneau is two spots ahead at 695th overall and 52nd in D3. If it was just carry-over from last season that's around the area I'd expect them to be, not 30 spots higher in D3 and 150 overall.

[WUPHF]

So, I have no idea how Ken Massey has set-up his ratings, but I would be surprised if the overall rankings matter because there are not enough games played between NAIA and Division III schools.

I am not sure what Massey would say about the value of his rankings across divisions and sanctioning bodies but I think he would admit the flaws.

But let's say I am wrong as is often the case...

How else do we explain St. Thomas?

As to my point about non-Division III games counting, I am speaking specifically to the Division III rankings.  As firm as the "No" response was, I would need to be convinced otherwise.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

As I understand it, Massey can't differentiate in a D1 v D3 game that the game for D1 counts and for D3 it is an exhibition. Thus, the D3 has that D1 influence. We see a lot more D3s playing these types of games and thus the data is going to be influenced by it.

[WUPHF]

This cannot be the case.

I think that Massey discounts all non-Division III games from the Division III ratings and here is my example as to why...

Massey has Illinois Wesleyan at No. 19 with a 7-3 record.

Click on the Illinois Wesleyan link and click on Division III and the record changes to 7-2 but the rating and SOS remain the same.  Southern Illinois disappears from the schedule.

In Division II, Bellarmine would surely have the No. 1 SOS after playing both Louisville and Notre Dame.

Massey codes these programs for a reason.

[Titan Q]

This cannot be the case.

I think that Massey discounts all non-Division III games from the Division III ratings and here is my example as to why...

Massey has Illinois Wesleyan at No. 19 with a 7-3 record.

Click on the Illinois Wesleyan link and click on Division III and the record changes to 7-2 but the rating and SOS remain the same.  Southern Illinois disappears from the schedule.

In Division II, Bellarmine would surely have the No. 1 SOS after playing both Louisville and Notre Dame.

Massey codes these programs for a reason.

This seems right.

Massey D3 ratings - https://www.masseyratings.com/cb2020/ncaa-d3/ratings.

IWU D3 page - https://www.masseyratings.com/team.php?t=3460&s=309912 (select NCAA D3).

Seems like the numbers used are identical -- meaning, only based on IWU's 9 D3 games.  I don't see how the Southern Illinois game is factored in there.