Top 25 talk

Started by Lurker, March 23, 2005, 09:02:04 AM

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Darryl Nester

#12765
How They Fared (COMPLETE)

Top 25

Rank   Pts   TeamW-L   Results
#1621Swarthmore9-0def. #11 Johns Hopkins, 67-62
#2592Emory9-0IDLE
#3546Wittenberg7-0won at Bridgewater (Va.), 96-74; def. (n) Eastern Mennonite, 80-59
#4528Middlebury9-0IDLE
#5493St. Thomas8-1won at #28 Augsburg, 89-81
#6467Nebraska Wesleyan10-1won at Wartburg, 85-69
#7466Marietta6-0IDLE
#8464Randolph-Macon9-0IDLE
#9416Washington U.8-1won at Fontbonne, 86-44
#10415UW-Platteville9-0won at Bethel, 65-54
#11349Johns Hopkins8-1LOST at #1 Swarthmore, 62-67
#12326Elmhurst6-1LOST to #32 North Central (Ill.), 74-76
#13324St. John's7-1won at Gustavus Adolphus, 66-52
#14248Babson9-0IDLE
#15218UW-La Crosse7-0def. Ripon, 54-53
#16176Whitworth5-1IDLE
#17160Nichols7-2won at Gordon, 76-73 OT; LOST at #33 Hamilton, 67-92
#18138UW-Stevens Point7-1LOST to Bethel, 46-64; won at Ripon, 72-49
#19110Colby9-0IDLE
#2098Guilford8-2IDLE
#2197Springfield8-1LOST at #25 Amherst, 70-76; won at Westfield State, 80-67
#2296Carthage7-1def. Alma, 98-94
#2394Augustana6-3def. MacMurray, 105-63; LOST to T#40 Illinois Wesleyan, 67-74 OT
#2486Benedictine8-1IDLE
#2578Amherst6-2def. #21 Springfield, 76-70; def. Pine Manor, 101-51


Others receiving votes
Rank   Pts   TeamW-L   Results
#2673Wooster6-1won at St. John Fisher, 81-80
#2763UW-Oshkosh5-3IDLE
#2861Augsburg5-2LOST to #5 St. Thomas, 81-89
#2957Christopher Newport7-4LOST at #36 Virginia Wesleyan, 64-74
#3049WPI8-2IDLE
#3148UW-Eau Claire8-2def. Lawrence, 72-63; LOST at St. Norbert, 58-70
#3233North Central (Ill.)7-3won at Aurora, 83-53; won at #12 Elmhurst, 76-74
#3320Hamilton9-1def. #17 Nichols, 92-67
#3417Whitman5-2IDLE
#3515Rochester8-1def. Ithaca, 68-63
#3614Virginia Wesleyan8-1def. #29 Christopher Newport, 74-64
#3713Loras8-2LOST to (n) Adrian, 61-82; won at Trine, 72-70
#3810Muhlenberg8-2LOST at Haverford, 62-68
#399Wheaton (Ill.)8-2won at Calvin, 76-67; def. North Park, 84-50
T#407Yeshiva10-1won at Eastern Connecticut, 83-75
T#407Pomona-Pitzer6-2def. Westcliff University, 83-68
T#407Illinois Wesleyan7-2won at #23 Augustana, 74-67 OT
#435Mount Union6-2def. Wilmington, 84-74
#444Centre7-2IDLE
#453Mary Hardin-Baylor6-2LOST to St. Thomas (Texas), 77-87
T#462Albertus Magnus9-1def. St. Lawrence, 86-61
T#462Widener10-0def. Lycoming, 57-54

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh


The 2019-20 season may end up seeing a lot of Division III coaches hit significant milestones throughout. On Sunday's Hoopsville, Dave chats with three coaches who have already won milestone games this season.

Whether it's 500 or 600, the milestone is a sign of a coach who not only has been coaching a long time, but also successful at coaching. That is certainly the case for the three coaches on Sunday' show.

Plus, we look ahead at the final Top 25 polls before the holidays. Who might move up or down and which teams should either get more or less attention.

Hoopsville is presented by D3hoops.com and airs from the WBCA/NABC Studio. You can watch Sunday's show On Demand in the following ways:
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- Team1 Sports: www.team1sports.com/Hoopsville/
- Team1 Sports app (Android TV, Amazon Fire, Apple TV, Roku) - you will either find it under the "live" section or search for the Hoopsville channel

Guests Schedule (order subject to change):
- Grey Giovanine, Augustana men's head coach
- Dave Niland, PSU-Behrend men's head coach
- Mary Beth Spirk, Moravian women's head coach
- Ryan Scott, Top 25 Double-Take

If you enjoy the show via the podcasts, choose your favorite avenue to listen and/or subscribe via the the following four avenues (click on the images when necessary):
SoundCloud: www.soundcloud.com/hoopsville








We also have the podcast now on Tune-In and others coming. We will update them once we have better abilities to do so.

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Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)


With the numbers figured after yesterday's games, all of my Top 25 is in Massey's Top 50.  I don't always agree with his specific rankings, but generally he's usually spot on.  I can't think of a year where any legitimate Top 25 contender was outside Massey's Top 50.  Obviously his rankings get better as the year goes along, but they seem to be rounding into form pretty well right now.
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

Fifth and Putnam

The one Massey Top 25 team that kind of oddly stands out to me is St. Thomas (TX) at 21.

WUPHF

Quote from: Fifth and Putnam on December 16, 2019, 06:36:34 PM
The one Massey Top 25 team that kind of oddly stands out to me is St. Thomas (TX) at 21.

Its the carry-over data from last season...

FCGrizzliesGrad

Quote from: WUPHF on December 16, 2019, 06:52:08 PM
Quote from: Fifth and Putnam on December 16, 2019, 06:36:34 PM
The one Massey Top 25 team that kind of oddly stands out to me is St. Thomas (TX) at 21.

Its the carry-over data from last season...
They finished 707th overall last year as part of the NAIA and currently they're 544th overall so I don't think it's much to do with the carry-over. They've beaten UMHB (a team that picked up a couple votes in last week's poll), and had a 10 point loss (in an exhibition but counts in Massey) to a D1 team. Their other four games were all big wins (2 non D3, 2 Concordia TX). It will be interesting to see how they stack up against Rice on Thursday in another exhibition.
I know they're not NCAA tourney eligible but I think they could create some havoc in the SCAC.
.

Football picker extraordinaire
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Basketball
2013 WIAC Pickem Co-champ
2015 Nat'l Pickem
2017: LEC and MIAA Pickem
2019: MIAA and WIAC Pickem

Soccer
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Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on December 16, 2019, 07:10:29 PM
Quote from: WUPHF on December 16, 2019, 06:52:08 PM
Quote from: Fifth and Putnam on December 16, 2019, 06:36:34 PM
The one Massey Top 25 team that kind of oddly stands out to me is St. Thomas (TX) at 21.

Its the carry-over data from last season...
They finished 707th overall last year as part of the NAIA and currently they're 544th overall so I don't think it's much to do with the carry-over. They've beaten UMHB (a team that picked up a couple votes in last week's poll), and had a 10 point loss (in an exhibition but counts in Massey) to a D1 team. Their other four games were all big wins (2 non D3, 2 Concordia TX). It will be interesting to see how they stack up against Rice on Thursday in another exhibition.
I know they're not NCAA tourney eligible but I think they could create some havoc in the SCAC.

The women's team is also very good. I believe both squads will be eligible for the SCAC tourney, just not the AQ if they win.
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

PauldingLightUP

Number 19 Benedictine has already lost, 72-90 to Concordia Chicago in NACC play.

WUPHF

Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on December 16, 2019, 07:10:29 PM
They finished 707th overall last year as part of the NAIA and currently they're 544th overall so I don't think it's much to do with the carry-over.

It depends how the data is used.

And it is not clear to me that we know how it is used.

For example, some people think that non-Division III games are figured in to the rankings.  I am not sure for reasons I mentioned on the CCIW board.

St. Thomas finished 24th in the NAIA last season.

I would be surprised if if the 707 overall ranking matters.

I would not be surprised if there are flaws in bringing over the data when a school moves divisions or sanctioning bodies.

smedindy

No. Massey counts a game that counts for one as a game that counts for both. And it's agnostic of division. It's how you do against the CB universe (which includes EVERYTHING)
Wabash Always Fights!

FCGrizzliesGrad

#12775
Quote from: WUPHF on December 17, 2019, 11:20:56 AM
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on December 16, 2019, 07:10:29 PM
They finished 707th overall last year as part of the NAIA and currently they're 544th overall so I don't think it's much to do with the carry-over.

It depends how the data is used.

And it is not clear to me that we know how it is used.

For example, some people think that non-Division III games are figured in to the rankings.  I am not sure for reasons I mentioned on the CCIW board.

St. Thomas finished 24th in the NAIA last season.

I would be surprised if if the 707 overall ranking matters.

I would not be surprised if there are flaws in bringing over the data when a school moves divisions or sanctioning bodies.
Why would the overall ranking not matter? That's how Massey ranks all teams regardless of division or affiliation. There is no difference in the data regarding what division or sanctioning body they're part of. It's all just 1 big list of teams. NAIA isn't isolated from everyone like NESCAC football (which does cause issues in those rankings)

Currently 24th in the NAIA I rankings (where St Thomas finished last season) is Texas Wesleyan who is ranked 697th overall. To compare that to D3, LeTourneau is two spots ahead at 695th overall and 52nd in D3. If it was just carry-over from last season that's around the area I'd expect them to be, not 30 spots higher in D3 and 150 overall.
.

Football picker extraordinaire
5 titles: CCIW, NJAC, ODAC:S
3x: ASC, IIAC, MIAA:S, MIAC, NACC:S, NCAC, OAC:P, Nat'l
2x: HCAC, ODAC:P, WIAC
1x: Bracket, OAC:S

Basketball
2013 WIAC Pickem Co-champ
2015 Nat'l Pickem
2017: LEC and MIAA Pickem
2019: MIAA and WIAC Pickem

Soccer
2023: Mens Pickem

WUPHF

So, I have no idea how Ken Massey has set-up his ratings, but I would be surprised if the overall rankings matter because there are not enough games played between NAIA and Division III schools.

I am not sure what Massey would say about the value of his rankings across divisions and sanctioning bodies but I think he would admit the flaws.

But let's say I am wrong as is often the case...

How else do we explain St. Thomas?

As to my point about non-Division III games counting, I am speaking specifically to the Division III rankings.  As firm as the "No" response was, I would need to be convinced otherwise.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

As I understand it, Massey can't differentiate in a D1 v D3 game that the game for D1 counts and for D3 it is an exhibition. Thus, the D3 has that D1 influence. We see a lot more D3s playing these types of games and thus the data is going to be influenced by it.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

WUPHF

This cannot be the case.

I think that Massey discounts all non-Division III games from the Division III ratings and here is my example as to why...

Massey has Illinois Wesleyan at No. 19 with a 7-3 record.

Click on the Illinois Wesleyan link and click on Division III and the record changes to 7-2 but the rating and SOS remain the same.  Southern Illinois disappears from the schedule.

In Division II, Bellarmine would surely have the No. 1 SOS after playing both Louisville and Notre Dame.

Massey codes these programs for a reason.


Titan Q

Quote from: WUPHF on December 17, 2019, 04:41:59 PM
This cannot be the case.

I think that Massey discounts all non-Division III games from the Division III ratings and here is my example as to why...

Massey has Illinois Wesleyan at No. 19 with a 7-3 record.

Click on the Illinois Wesleyan link and click on Division III and the record changes to 7-2 but the rating and SOS remain the same.  Southern Illinois disappears from the schedule.

In Division II, Bellarmine would surely have the No. 1 SOS after playing both Louisville and Notre Dame.

Massey codes these programs for a reason.

This seems right.

Massey D3 ratings - https://www.masseyratings.com/cb2020/ncaa-d3/ratings.

IWU D3 page - https://www.masseyratings.com/team.php?t=3460&s=309912 (select NCAA D3).

Seems like the numbers used are identical -- meaning, only based on IWU's 9 D3 games.  I don't see how the Southern Illinois game is factored in there.