Top 25 talk

[stlawus]

HCA is worth 3pts Wheaton won by 5. Should have been Wheaton 4, IWU 5 and UWO 6 if the voters need to anchor UWO to IWU. And if we are gonna wait until the end of the year then why have rankings at all during the season.

"It's all we have to gauge the field before the regional rankings and it stokes the conversation" as I just said.

[Greek Tragedy]

I don't think you can just look at who beat who. Look at the numbers.

Last week it was:

IWU 590 pts
Oshkosh 479 pts
Wheaton 388 pts

This week

IWU 517 pts
Oshkosh 510 pts
Wheaton 500 pts

Wheaton gained nearly 200 points on IWU. That's pretty significant.

[USee]

I don't think you can just look at who beat who. Look at the numbers.

Last week it was:

IWU 590 pts
Oshkosh 479 pts
Wheaton 388 pts

This week

IWU 517 pts
Oshkosh 510 pts
Wheaton 500 pts

Wheaton gained nearly 200 points on IWU. That's pretty significant.

It is significant but not the point. All that does is highlight the fact that there are voters who rank IWU ahead of Wheaton despite the obvious head to head.  Again, the polls are what they are, the voters try and do a good job with the data they have. It seems like Head to head matters until it doesn't. For example, when Elmhurst was ranked 7th and Wheaton 5th and the Thunder lost on a halfcourt toss on the road to Elmhurst,  in the poll the next week Elmhurst stays at 7 and Wheaton is ranked behind them at 8. Obviously the voters strongly considered the head to head as primary. #10 UWO loses by 2 on the road to IWU and they move up but stay anchored behind IWU, also giving the most consideration to the head to head result. But when #2 IWU loses on the road to #5 Wheaton by 5 (HCA is 3pts) they are behind IWU in the next poll? Wheaton is the only team to have played 2 top 10 teams and has 1 win and 1 half court toss loss.  It's really early in the season still and all of these teams play each other and have big games coming up. I get it if a team is ranked at #23 and beats #1 there may not be a move ahead of that team but these teams were both in the top 10. There's plenty of time and games for things to get confusing so at this point it seems like HTH should trump the other stuff, like it has for other similar results.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Randolph Macon lost to CNU, and I don't think a single voter moved CNU ahead of them. It's not always a given, unless you really see the teams as even going into the head to head matchup.

[WUPHF]

Well, IWU will either defeat Yeshiva, becoming the hottest team in the country (assuming a win tonight) or will lose to Yeshiva and surely fall below Wheaton, so...


Wheaton did look very good on Saturday and as you pointed out, the return of the football players was a big part of that.  The big guy was fun to watch on Leritz.

[CNU85]

Well, IWU will either defeat Yeshiva, becoming the hottest team in the country (assuming a win tonight) or will lose to Yeshiva and surely fall below Wheaton, so...


Wheaton did look very good on Saturday and as you pointed out, the return of the football players was a big part of that.  The big guy was fun to watch on Leritz.

I predict an IWU victory!

[WUPHF]

I have watched Yeshiva and IWU twice this season so my sample size is limited, but I predict an IWU win.  I added a poll.  Maybe people will weigh in.

[USee]

Well, IWU will either defeat Yeshiva, becoming the hottest team in the country (assuming a win tonight) or will lose to Yeshiva and surely fall below Wheaton, so...


Wheaton did look very good on Saturday and as you pointed out, the return of the football players was a big part of that.  The big guy was fun to watch on Leritz.

I agree. That's why this conversation has a shelf life.

I guess I am used to a 10 game football schedule where undefeated is likely vs a 28 game basketball schedule where undefeated is unlikely. Seems like the pollsters are forgiving of losses in basketball and unforgiving in football, which makes sense given the limited data.  But having watched IWU and Wheaton, I don't see a lot of separation there when both are playing well.

[Greek Tragedy]

I don't think you can just look at who beat who. Look at the numbers.

Last week it was:

IWU 590 pts
Oshkosh 479 pts
Wheaton 388 pts

This week

IWU 517 pts
Oshkosh 510 pts
Wheaton 500 pts

Wheaton gained nearly 200 points on IWU. That's pretty significant.

It is significant but not the point. All that does is highlight the fact that there are voters who rank IWU ahead of Wheaton despite the obvious head to head.  Again, the polls are what they are, the voters try and do a good job with the data they have. It seems like Head to head matters until it doesn't. For example, when Elmhurst was ranked 7th and Wheaton 5th and the Thunder lost on a halfcourt toss on the road to Elmhurst,  in the poll the next week Elmhurst stays at 7 and Wheaton is ranked behind them at 8. Obviously the voters strongly considered the head to head as primary. #10 UWO loses by 2 on the road to IWU and they move up but stay anchored behind IWU, also giving the most consideration to the head to head result. But when #2 IWU loses on the road to #5 Wheaton by 5 (HCA is 3pts) they are behind IWU in the next poll? Wheaton is the only team to have played 2 top 10 teams and has 1 win and 1 half court toss loss.  It's really early in the season still and all of these teams play each other and have big games coming up. I get it if a team is ranked at #23 and beats #1 there may not be a move ahead of that team but these teams were both in the top 10. There's plenty of time and games for things to get confusing so at this point it seems like HTH should trump the other stuff, like it has for other similar results.

It obviously matters a lot because they gained 200 points on them.

[USee]

They gained 200 pts because a number of voters put Wheaton ahead of IWU on their ballots. But a number of them kept them behind as well. Points are an output of the voting process, not the focus of it.

[WUPHF]

Well, IWU will either defeat Yeshiva, becoming the hottest team in the country (assuming a win tonight) or will lose to Yeshiva and surely fall below Wheaton, so...

Correction: Wheaton will move ahead of IWU when the team that lost to Webster defeats IWU on Sunday, lol. How did I forget about that game?

[thebear]

I have watched Yeshiva and IWU twice this season so my sample size is limited, but I predict an IWU win.  I added a poll.  Maybe people will weigh in.

Yeshiva beat [6-6 Massey 144] NJCU, coached by former Siena great Marc Brown tonight in JC, 93-86 to go to 14-0. NCJU hung 58 on Yeshiva in the second half, but couldn't come back from a 21 point halftime deficit. Turell had 41 tonight in 40 minutes.

IWU has played a much tougher schedule.  Three games against top 20, 5 against top 80.

For Yeshiva, Turell is a matchup problem, 6-7 with real guard skills, shooting 47% [47 makes] from three, not sure how IWU will defend him with 6-6 Leifer and 6-8 Armstrong also on the floor. Yeshiva shooting .416 from the arc [lots of players with international experience]. Halpert, who returned tonight after missing two games is shooting .512 [44 makes] from the arc.


I remember vividly over the years some interesting referee calls on visiting teams in the big city.

Should be worth watching

[SpringSt7]

Leifer and Armstrong are not big matchup concerns because they don't really look to score. Turell, Reef, and Halpert are the ones that will cause trouble.

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (So Far)

That eye-catching 2-0 win for Marietta is a COVID-induced "no contest":

MARIETTA, Ohio — The Ohio Athletic Conference men's basketball game between Marietta College and John Carroll University, scheduled for this Saturday (Dec. 18) in University Heights, has been canceled due to COVID-19 protocol issues at John Carroll.

Per OAC COVID guidelines, the game will officially be declared a no contest. However, for the purposes of OAC Tournament seeding and regular season conference standings, the game will be considered a win for Marietta and a loss for John Carroll.

Their d3hoops page shows Marietta's record as 7-2 (counting this as a win), but I changed it to the official 6-2 in the report.

Additionally, there are three postponed games on the list this week (also due to COVID?)

As usual, the schedule thins out a bit in mid-December. Based on past years, I'm assuming that a new poll will be issued next Monday, and then a long break until the next one (maybe January 3?).

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	605	Yeshiva	14-0	won at New Jersey City, 93-86
#2	603	Randolph-Macon	8-1	IDLE
#3	584	UW-Platteville	11-0	IDLE
#4	517	Illinois Wesleyan	8-1	won at North Central (Ill.), 73-48; 12/19 at #15 Washington U.
#5	510	UW-Oshkosh	9-1	IDLE
#6	500	Wheaton (Ill.)	9-1	12/18 at Olivet
#7	466	St. Joseph (Conn.)	8-0	IDLE
#8	396	Marietta	6-2	def. Otterbein, 87-62; won at John Carroll, 2-0* (see note above)
#9	373	UW-La Crosse	8-2	12/15 at St. Mary's (Minn.) postponed; 12/18 at Crown
#10	371	Roanoke	6-1	12/19 vs. #37 Wartburg
#11	355	Johns Hopkins	7-1	IDLE
#12	341	Christopher Newport	8-2	won at Hampden-Sydney, 79-74; 12/17 vs. Virginia Wesleyan
#13	314	Whitworth	8-1	12/17 vs. Schreiner
#14	268	Elmhurst	8-2	12/18 vs. Carroll
#15	260	Washington U.	8-1	12/19 vs. #4 Illinois Wesleyan
#16	221	Mount Union	7-1	12/17 at Wilmington
#17	204	Williams	9-0	IDLE
#18	189	Swarthmore	7-1	IDLE
#19	173	Mary Hardin-Baylor	5-1	12/16 vs. Texas-Dallas; 12/18 vs. T#40 LeTourneau
#20	145	Amherst	8-0	IDLE
#21	144	RPI	8-0	IDLE
#22	79	Heidelberg	8-1	12/18 at Muskingum
#23	75	Maryville (Tenn.)	7-1	12/18 vs. Ferrum; 12/19 at Hampden-Sydney
#24	71	DeSales	10-0	IDLE
#25	68	Hardin-Simmons	9-1	12/16 vs. University of the Ozarks

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	43	Wesleyan	9-1	IDLE
#27	39	Lynchburg	7-2	won at William Peace, 92-60
#28	37	WPI	8-1	IDLE
#29	32	Calvin	5-2	IDLE
#30	29	Trine	5-3	12/18 at Anderson
#31	23	Case Western Reserve	8-1	12/17 vs. Kalamazoo
#32	12	Trinity (Texas)	7-1	12/17 at Austin; 12/19 at Centenary (La.)
#33	11	Wooster	6-1	12/18 at UC Santa Cruz; 12/19 vs. Lewis and Clark
T#34	10	Oswego	7-1	IDLE
T#34	10	Rochester	7-2	IDLE
#36	8	Berry	6-1	12/19 vs. Marywood
#37	7	Wartburg	9-1	12/19 vs. #10 Roanoke
#38	6	Emory	4-3	IDLE
#39	5	Cal Lutheran	7-2	12/17 vs. Loras
T#40	4	Brandeis	7-2	IDLE
T#40	4	Chapman	8-1	12/19 vs. SUNY Oneonta
T#40	4	LeTourneau	8-0	12/18 at #19 Mary Hardin-Baylor; 12/19 at Concordia (Texas)
#43	3	Nazareth	6-1	IDLE
T#44	2	Augsburg	7-1	12/15 at UW-River Falls postponed; 12/19 vs. Stevenson
T#44	2	Stockton	9-1	12/18 at Rosemont
T#44	2	Mary Washington	9-2	12/14 at Averett postponed; 12/18 at Hampden-Sydney; 12/19 vs. Ferrum

[Greek Tragedy]

I do believe the WIAC games in Minnesota were do to weather, FWIW.