Top 25 talk

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

We know St Joe's struggles to guard them.  I don't think Marrietta has the personnel to do it (although they could probably hang on offense better than almost anyone). I'm not sure Platteville has the defenders to do it. Oshkosh probably does, CNU might.

Only two maybe three teams in the nation have the personnel to defend Yeshiva, apparently.

I would counter with the neutral court game against Rochester, the first of the delayed season for the Yellowjackets squad that went 1-5 against the top 3 of the UAA the season prior.

That game was tied with two minutes left.  Yeshiva capitalized on a Rochester defensive miscue for a three-pointer and Ryan Turrell hit two Aston Francis-like circus shots and the Macs walked away with a 70-63 win.

But sure, let's give the Massey SOS No. 393 team the benefit of the doubt because of the so-called eye test.  Obviously, we need more data.

Some other ranked teams for comparison with sub-300 SOS according to Massey... #7 St Joseph (357th), #17 Williams (323rd), #20 Amherst (364th), #21 RPI (375th), ORV #26 Wesleyan (331st)

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I guess I'm confused as to what people are saying about Yeshiva after this game.  IWU lost to WashU in their previous game and didn't look super great doing it.  If they'd played in NY like they did in St Louis, I'd've expected a similar result.  Nobody has said that game is indicative of who IWU is as a team - no one was surprised when they came out and smoked Yeshiva.

I don't think the Yeshiva performance against IWU was all that different, but it seems a lot of people are entirely invalidating their abilities because of one loss to a good team in a situation they've never been in before.

Yes, the crap schedule is a big problem.  We don't know if Yeshiva can step up in a high level game, because we've only got a sample size of one.  It's always been the question with them - one we still don't have an answer to.  I don't think anyone has unquestionably promoted them on anything but potential, because there was little besides potential to really know.

We got some feedback and they're going to be ranked accordingly until/if they have a change to prove themselves in March.

There's a difference between saying "they didn't play like one of the 50 best teams on the one night they really needed to" and saying "they're not one of the 50 best teams."

I've only been trying to point out the ways they struggled and explain why that's maybe not indicative of the team overall.  Ultimately, we don't know - and everyone will have to decide for themselves whether the performance against IWU is who Yeshiva is or if it's a low point.  I just don't think anybody can watch that one game and make a judgement.

Yes, they only put 25 good minutes together against Rochester last year - but they also played USJ tough in both games - a little sloppy, but certainly better.  WPI was not a ranked team that season, but they always have a pretty good defense that moves well and slows people down; Yeshiva ran by them like they were standing still.

If we're saying, "Yeshiva would clearly struggle to beat any team in the Top 10" that makes a lot of sense - and it generally true of every team in the Top 10.  If we're saying "Yeshiva is clearly inferior to every team in the Top 10," I think that's going a little too far.

The game that came to mind watching YU-IWU was the first time Marietta made the Elite 8.  They got beat by 50 at Augustana, not because they were grossly inferior, but because the moment was beyond their experience.  You see it happen all the time when a team plays at a level of competition they've not seen before.  Judge the team for it, definitely, but don't judge too harshly; its usually not indicative of what the team is capable of doing or what they'll do when they get another opportunity.

[SpringSt7]

Williams and Amherst aren't ranked #1 in the country, they're ranked 17th and 20th for precisely that reason. They're not currently being held to the same standard. They've also combined to go to 15 Final Fours. They get a different level of benefit of the doubt.

[WUPHF]

I am invalidating the point that there are two or three teams that can guard Yeshiva.

Also, maybe the defensive performance by IWU was nothing special, but instead Yeshiva had a let down.  If that excuse works for Illinois Wesleyan...

[WUPHF]

Also, the win over WPI will always have an asterisk.

[GoPerry]

As a neutral observer, I watched Yeshiva get dominated on their home floor with a packed homer crowd.  I just don't believe there is any remaining evidence that they deserve a top ten ranking to say nothing of the #1 ranking before Thursday.  And with tomorrow's game vs Williams cancelled, wherever they get ranked in the next poll is where they'll stay, or move up, since they will roll over everybody remaining on their schedule. 

13 voters had them #1.  12 had them ranked high but weren't really sure.  Thursday night should have validated any suspicion one should need.  I just wonder if the 13 #1 voters will be able to drop Yeshiva out of their top five even.

The voting is subjective and one can use all sorts of qualifiers to justify a vote.  Maybe here's another – if Yeshiva played a schedule similar to IWU so far this season (vs Oshkosh, @Wheaton, @WashU, @ Calvin, @NCC), would they have been undefeated going into Thursday?  If not then where should they rank as a two loss team with a weak schedule? Or a three loss team?  Again, all subjective.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I am invalidating the point that there are two or three teams that can guard Yeshiva.

Also, maybe the defensive performance by IWU was nothing special, but instead Yeshiva had a let down.  If that excuse works for Illinois Wesleyan...

For the record, I didn't say 2-3 that can guard them, but 2-3 that can do to them what IWU did, in completely shutting down everybody. There are definitely more teams than that who can give Yeshiva trouble and make them work, and win, I just don't think there are very many who'll hold them to the .8 points per possession or whatever it is they ended up with in that game.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Also, the win over WPI will always have an asterisk.

Why? Because there were no fans there? That probably benefited WPI.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

The voting is subjective and one can use all sorts of qualifiers to justify a vote.  Maybe here's another – if Yeshiva played a schedule similar to IWU so far this season (vs Oshkosh, @Wheaton, @WashU, @ Calvin, @NCC), would they have been undefeated going into Thursday?  If not then where should they rank as a two loss team with a weak schedule? Or a three loss team?  Again, all subjective.

This is the rub. You have to pick some formula, and there's not really one better than another. I don't tend to compare a team's best performance, but what I imagine to be their most likely performance.  There are teams whose best performance, I believe, would beat RMC's best, but I'm still voting RMC #1, because I still think their typical performance is consistently high.

A team in a good conference, with a strong schedule, can really improve in my mind, by being consistently good. I have no qualms about dropping a team that didn't lose because some other team is playing better. My #1 vote right now is way less secure than it was a month ago, not because RMC has gone down in my estimation, but other teams are being more consistent.

I had Yeshiva higher, largely because they had generally stepped up enough to win, when challenged, even if they didn't always look as good as their talent indicated. Not doing it on a big stage changes that calculus. I have to lower my expectations of a typical performance.

How far that drops them is really not an easy calculation, but it will be significant. This isn't a loss you overlook, the way it was relatively easy to ignore RMC's loss to CNU or UWO's loss to IWU.

At the same time, after the top 7-8 teams, we're really not seeing a ton of consistency yet.

I'll be spending a lot of time tomorrow with this ballot.

[SpringSt7]

Just in the interest of clarification, I'm in the camp of "Yeshiva was never the best team in the country to begin with" and shouldn't have been ranked number 1. I think, given how many unknowns there still are with no 20-21 season, they should be in the 12-17 range. To drop a team that has won 50 of its last 51 games, regardless of competition, out of the poll all together, would be a stretch for me. But (if this game gets played sooner rather than later) if they lose in a similar manner to Williams I would question their national credentials.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Just in the interest of clarification, I'm in the camp of "Yeshiva was never the best team in the country to begin with" and shouldn't have been ranked number 1. I think, given how many unknowns there still are with no 20-21 season, they should be in the 12-17 range. To drop a team that has won 50 of its last 51 games, regardless of competition, out of the poll all together, would be a stretch for me. But (if this game gets played sooner rather than later) if they lose in a similar manner to Williams I would question their national credentials.

I find none of this unreasonable. I'm not sure I'll have them 12-17, but it's not out of the realm of possibility when I look at all the data.

The Williams game is off, by the way, which makes analysis more difficult. Yeshiva heads into winter break now. They don't practice for three weeks and won't play again for four.

[PoppersMacsLive]

Postponed. Teams are trying to find a make-up date

Williams v Yeshiva not happening...

[Titan Q]

I've captured the Illinois Wesleyan vs #1-Yeshiva trip here.

I took many of these pics, not all.  Thanks to those who did, including Catherine E. Dunlap.

Thanks to everyone on both sides of this matchup for once again showing #whyd3.  No one at this game will ever forget it.  It was more than a basketball game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQM_lHAtLTg

[Titan Q]

This provides some pretty incredible context on how the IWU/Yeshiva game was bigger than basketball.

https://twitter.com/IWUhoopscom/status/1477639865185492993?s=20

[McBuckets]

Just a quick note of thanks to all with your collective commentary about the IWU and YU game.  While relatively new to D3, I was one of the 25,000 watching online and while I hoped for a closer contest the excitement of the event and the fans certainly came through.  The Titans really were efficient and played with great intensity and the Macs really never had a chance.  Just watched TitanQ's video and it was fantastic.