Top 25 talk

[Titan Q]

Postponed. Teams are trying to find a make-up date

I have heard the same - that YU vs Williams will happen.  Working on a date.

[Titan Q]

The question mark for me with Yeshiva is how they handle WIAC/CCIW type size.  6-6 Leiffer is a great player...but is he big enough to handle the best D3 5s?  I don't know.

IWU's 6-7/235 All-American F Matt Leritz is not a Jack Flynn type (Matt is more of a 4)...but Leiffer vs Leritz will be really interesting on 12/30 in NYC.  And IWU will have a few more 6-7+ types in the low post rotation...I'm interested to see how Yeshiva handles that.

Thursday's game demonstrated what I've been wondering about.  I think Yeshiva matches up great with many Top 25 teams, but I think they would have challenges with the biggest, strongest, most physical teams - the top CCIW and WIAC teams, and WashU to name a few.  The Macs were physically dominated against IWU -- look no further than IWU's +20 rebounding margin.

YU will have to find a way to adjust to this style of play between now and March.

[SpringSt7]

When Williams lost 77-69 to Yeshiva in February 2020, their centers (who both ran 6'8/6'9) combined for 28 points on 13-21 shooting. The rebounds were even, 32-32, with Gabe Leifer grabbing 15. I don't think it's very telling because Williams shot 5-21 from 3 and as Yeshiva found out against IWU, you can't rebound made shots. But that is really their only other data point in terms of size and physicality from this 3 year run.

That Williams team had okay size for their standards, this version that Yeshiva will hopefully play eventually will run bigger----the starting lineup will be something along the lines of 6'3/6'5/6'5/6'7/6'9 with 6'7/6'8/6'8 coming off the bench.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

The Williams bigs in recent years have often been a little slower, too. I think denying Leifer the ball is obviously a more effective strategy than trying to defend his post game.

I'd also note, while USJ is not as big, their post players more than held their own against Williams, and are still pretty big.

[SpringSt7]

I don't recall the Williams bigs being noticeably slower unless you're comparing them to Troy Whittington! Kempton, Karpowicz, and Karren are not speedsters but all move well for their size, Karpowicz in particular.

USJ's best post defense against Williams was their press. Karp had 14 points on 10 shots in the first half and finished with 18 points on 13 shots. They couldn't get him the ball because their guards could barely get the ball over halfcourt. Powell and Dixon-Thompson struggled to guard but Samuels did a good job off the bench.

I think ball pressure against Leifer is most effective rather than denying him or doubling the post. He's averaging 9 points a game on 48% shooting this year, you can live with him operating 1 on 1. It's when he can hold the ball outside the arc uninhibited and has all day to hit open cutters that you get in trouble.

[SpringSt7]

One other thing I would add that I hadn't really noticed in watching Yeshiva until it revealed itself against Illinois Wesleyan---they don't really have much shooting. Turell is shooting a blistering 47% and Halpert is at 49% (!), but those 2 combine for 95 of their 144 made threes. The rest of the team is 49-157 (31%). So when they throw the ball to Turell in an elbow isolation, you really only have to worry about Halpert off the ball. The rest of the guys on the court are not going to burn you shooting 3's. If you can reasonably handle their motion offense--which most good teams they will see should be able to do, to a degree, they don't have the personnel to beat you in a 3 point shooting contest.

[Titan Q]

One other thing I would add that I hadn't really noticed in watching Yeshiva until it revealed itself against Illinois Wesleyan---they don't really have much shooting. Turell is shooting a blistering 47% and Halpert is at 49% (!), but those 2 combine for 95 of their 144 made threes. The rest of the team is 49-157 (31%). So when they throw the ball to Turell in an elbow isolation, you really only have to worry about Halpert off the ball. The rest of the guys on the court are not going to burn you shooting 3's. If you can reasonably handle their motion offense--which most good teams they will see should be able to do, to a degree, they don't have the personnel to beat you in a 3 point shooting contest.

And when Yeshiva has Armstrong or Zucker in the game, it gives the defense a guy they don't have to guard anywhere but the low post.  IWU played 10 feet off those guys and was able to help on Turell and others.

As an offense, I think very tough to have guys on the floor the defense doesn't have to worry about.

[WUPHF]

For the record, I didn't say 2-3 that can guard them, but 2-3 that can do to them what IWU did, in completely shutting down everybody. There are definitely more teams than that who can give Yeshiva trouble and make them work, and win, I just don't think there are very many who'll hold them to the .8 points per possession or whatever it is they ended up with in that game.

I understood what you meant.

My point is that we do not have enough evidence to make this assertion.

[Titan Q]

Q-cast Season 2, Episode 10.  Thanks to Ari Lamm for joining me to talk Yeshiva U. and the IWU/YU game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZJLrfsm3ek&t=65s

0:00 Ari's background; his D3 story
9:40 Orthodox 101
20:51 Pre-game expectations
23:27 Initial impressions when game started
27:23 1st half analysis
31:30 Cody Mitchell & Luke Yoder
34:18 Ryan Turell 1st half
37:35 Thoughts going into 2nd half
38:43 Ryan Sroka
40:03 Boxing out & rebounding
47:58 "Midwest"
54:10 YU's schedule
57:58 YU recruiting
1:05:10 Where do the Macs go from here?
1:09:58 IWU/YU postgame interaction; more than just a game
1:17:59 Final thoughts

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (Complete)

"Postponed" in this report sometimes means "cancelled." There were so many that I decided not to sort out those details.

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	605	Yeshiva	14-1	won at New Jersey City, 93-86; LOST to #4 Illinois Wesleyan, 59-73; 01/02 vs. #17 Williams postponed
#2	603	Randolph-Macon	10-1	def. Gettysburg, 77-57; 12/29 vs. Rosemont postponed; def. Averett, 68-54
#3	584	UW-Platteville	13-0	def. (n) Beloit, 74-46; won at St. Norbert, 82-57
#4	517	Illinois Wesleyan	9-2	won at North Central (Ill.), 73-48; LOST at #15 Washington U., 61-71; 12/29 at Mount St. Vincent postponed; won at #1 Yeshiva, 73-59
#5	510	UW-Oshkosh	12-1	def. St. Norbert, 73-54; def. #29 Calvin, 78-56; def. Ripon, 86-59
#6	500	Wheaton (Ill.)	11-2	won at Olivet, 91-82; LOST to (n) #36 Berry, 72-78; def. (n) Edgewood, 79-61
#7	466	St. Joseph (Conn.)	8-0	IDLE
#8	396	Marietta	9-2	def. Otterbein, 87-62; won at John Carroll, 2-0; def. (n) Chicago, 78-65; won at Transylvania, 87-74
#9	373	UW-La Crosse	9-2	12/15 at St. Mary's (Minn.) postponed; won at Crown, 67-43; 12/30 vs. Bethel postponed
#10	371	Roanoke	9-2	def. (n) #37 Wartburg, 70-66; LOST to Dubuque, 67-75; def. Covenant, 59-51; def. Buena Vista, 87-66
#11	355	Johns Hopkins	7-1	12/29 vs. Manhattanville postponed; 12/30 vs. TBD postponed
#12	341	Christopher Newport	13-2	won at Hampden-Sydney, 79-74; def. Virginia Wesleyan, 80-72; def. (n) Washington and Lee, 103-91; 12/21 at Catholic postponed; def. Shenandoah, 87-60; 12/29 vs. Merchant Marine postponed; def. Southern Virginia, 74-65; def. Widener, 85-47
#13	314	Whitworth	9-1	def. Schreiner, 88-70; 12/30 vs. UW-River Falls postponed
#14	268	Elmhurst	11-2	def. Carroll, 85-78; won at Manchester, 101-75; def. Lake Forest, 93-74
#15	260	Washington U.	10-1	def. #4 Illinois Wesleyan, 71-61; def. Westminster (Mo.), 86-57
#16	221	Mount Union	10-1	won at Wilmington, 89-71; 12/29 vs. Geneva postponed; def. Lycoming, 107-61
#17	204	Williams	9-0	12/29 vs. York (Pa.) postponed; 12/29 at SUNYIT postponed; 12/30 at Utica postponed; 01/02 at #1 Yeshiva postponed
#18	189	Swarthmore	9-1	won at Immaculata, 80-57; def. Stevens, 89-63
#19	173	Mary Hardin-Baylor	9-1	def. Texas-Dallas, 79-69; def. T#40 LeTourneau, 91-86 OT; won at Pacific Lutheran, 56-53; def. (n) St. Mary's (Minn.), 84-64
#20	145	Amherst	8-1	12/28 at SUNY-Old Westbury postponed; LOST to Babson, 59-70
#21	144	RPI	9-1	LOST to (n) Oswego State, 46-59; def. (n) Medaille, 81-67
#22	79	Heidelberg	9-1	won at Muskingum, 96-76; 12/21 at Oberlin postponed
#23	75	Maryville (Tenn.)	11-1	def. (n) Ferrum, 84-47; won at Hampden-Sydney, 85-84; def. (n) Pacific Lutheran, 74-68; def. (n) Chicago, 83-73
#24	71	DeSales	12-1	won at Muhlenberg, 72-60; def. Neumann, 96-56; LOST to Drew, 54-71
#25	68	Hardin-Simmons	10-1	def. University of the Ozarks, 77-49

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	43	Wesleyan	11-1	def. (n) Wilkes, 108-87; def. (n) Franklin and Marshall, 79-47
#27	39	Lynchburg	8-3	won at William Peace, 92-60; def. (n) Muskingum, 94-90; LOST at #33 Wooster, 78-88 OT
#28	37	WPI	8-1	12/29 vs. Endicott postponed; 12/30 at Salem State postponed; 12/30 vs. Endicott postponed
#29	32	Calvin	7-4	def. (n) Texas Lutheran, 76-74 OT; LOST at #32 Trinity (Texas), 71-88; LOST at #5 UW-Oshkosh, 56-78; def. (n) UW-Stout, 97-88
#30	29	Trine	7-4	LOST at Anderson, 57-65; def. UW-Stevens Point, 65-56; def. Concordia-Chicago, 88-56
#31	23	Case Western Reserve	9-1	def. Kalamazoo, 94-74
#32	12	Trinity (Texas)	10-2	won at Austin, 89-80; LOST at Centenary (La.), 78-87; def. Alma, 103-64; def. #29 Calvin, 88-71
#33	11	Wooster	8-3	won at UC Santa Cruz, 80-71; LOST to (n) Lewis and Clark, 67-72; 12/29 vs. La Roche postponed; def. #27 Lynchburg, 88-78 OT; LOST to Muskingum, 66-68
T#34	10	Oswego	9-1	def. (n) #21 RPI, 59-46; won at St. John Fisher, 83-70
T#34	10	Rochester	7-2	01/02 at DePauw postponed
#36	8	Berry	9-2	def. (n) Marywood, 79-46; def. (n) Albright, 74-54; def. (n) #6 Wheaton (Ill.), 78-72; LOST to (n) Carthage, 58-62
#37	7	Wartburg	10-2	LOST to (n) #10 Roanoke, 66-70; def. (n) Baldwin Wallace, 73-71
#38	6	Emory	7-3	def. UW-Whitewater, 91-70; def. Birmingham-Southern, 91-67; won at Oglethorpe, 87-65
#39	5	Cal Lutheran	8-3	def. Loras, 90-82; LOST to Northwestern (Minn.), 77-85; 12/29 vs. Benedictine postponed; 01/01 vs. Pomona-Pitzer postponed
T#40	4	Brandeis	7-2	12/30 vs. Union postponed
T#40	4	Chapman	9-1	def. SUNY Oneonta, 59-52; 01/01 at Redlands postponed
T#40	4	LeTourneau	9-2	LOST at #19 Mary Hardin-Baylor, 86-91 OT; LOST at Concordia (Texas), 87-89 OT; won at Austin, 99-84
#43	3	Nazareth	8-1	def. (n) Edgewood, 78-72; def. (n) Carroll, 72-58
T#44	2	Augsburg	9-2	12/15 at UW-River Falls postponed; LOST at UW-River Falls, 67-86; 12/19 vs. Stevenson postponed; def. (n) Rhodes, 70-60; def. (n) DePauw, 82-68
T#44	2	Stockton	10-1	won at Rosemont, 69-66
T#44	2	Mary Washington	12-3	12/14 at Averett postponed; LOST at Hampden-Sydney, 71-84; def. (n) Ferrum, 86-55; def. (n) Goucher, 77-48; won at Albright, 85-69

[SpringSt7]

Rewatching first half of Yeshiva/IWU. Do I have it correct that Steinmetz didn't use a timeout until they were down 20? I get that he's not accustomed to media timeouts but man, that seems like a self inflicted wound.

[SpartyBlue]

I guess I'm confused as to what people are saying about Yeshiva after this game.  IWU lost to WashU in their previous game and didn't look super great doing it.  If they'd played in NY like they did in St Louis, I'd've expected a similar result.  Nobody has said that game is indicative of who IWU is as a team - no one was surprised when they came out and smoked Yeshiva.

I don't think the Yeshiva performance against IWU was all that different, but it seems a lot of people are entirely invalidating their abilities because of one loss to a good team in a situation they've never been in before.

Yes, the crap schedule is a big problem.  We don't know if Yeshiva can step up in a high level game, because we've only got a sample size of one.  It's always been the question with them - one we still don't have an answer to.  I don't think anyone has unquestionably promoted them on anything but potential, because there was little besides potential to really know.

We got some feedback and they're going to be ranked accordingly until/if they have a change to prove themselves in March.

There's a difference between saying "they didn't play like one of the 50 best teams on the one night they really needed to" and saying "they're not one of the 50 best teams."

I've only been trying to point out the ways they struggled and explain why that's maybe not indicative of the team overall.  Ultimately, we don't know - and everyone will have to decide for themselves whether the performance against IWU is who Yeshiva is or if it's a low point.  I just don't think anybody can watch that one game and make a judgement.

Yes, they only put 25 good minutes together against Rochester last year - but they also played USJ tough in both games - a little sloppy, but certainly better.  WPI was not a ranked team that season, but they always have a pretty good defense that moves well and slows people down; Yeshiva ran by them like they were standing still.

If we're saying, "Yeshiva would clearly struggle to beat any team in the Top 10" that makes a lot of sense - and it generally true of every team in the Top 10.  If we're saying "Yeshiva is clearly inferior to every team in the Top 10," I think that's going a little too far.

The game that came to mind watching YU-IWU was the first time Marietta made the Elite 8.  They got beat by 50 at Augustana, not because they were grossly inferior, but because the moment was beyond their experience.  You see it happen all the time when a team plays at a level of competition they've not seen before.  Judge the team for it, definitely, but don't judge too harshly; its usually not indicative of what the team is capable of doing or what they'll do when they get another opportunity.

My thoughts on IWU and Yeshiva are as follows--disclaimer:I'm a fan of both squads.  I was not surprised at all that IWU did what they did, and that was thoroughly dominate from bell to bell.

SoS matters, and it's why there is way more than a sample size of one, YU simply was not prepared to face the aggressive style that IWU and many other teams in the "midwest" would give to YU.  I think YU is a great story, they are fun to watch, but many of the games I've watched look like they're playing a random CCIW JV team (I understand this isn't their fault, doesn't change the reality).  It doesn't mean YU isn't talented, it means they were not prepared to match up 1 through 5 with the physicality and pace of IWU.  They simply were not.  Yes, making a bunch of 3s early helps, but to me this was a physical and speed domination.  I think you can reasonably extrapolate that YU probably isn't a top 10 team; doesn't mean they can't change things and make a run, but they will most likely struggle with many of the matchups they would encounter in the top 20 and frankly from the top half of several other conferences.

IWU. They are very good, but to me haven't proven they deserve to be ranked 1.  Wash U's interior size and physicality on defense gave them trouble, as did a physical Wheaton team.  The win over UWO was good quality, but again, matchup advantage to IWU as UWO is essentially a five guard team.  We'll see how things play out for IWU; Elmhurst, NP, and obviously Wheaton rematch will provide challenges for the Titans. 

My (meaningless) top 10

1.  UWP  13-0
2.  RM 10-1
3. IWU 9-2
4. UWO  12-1
5.  Wash U 10-1
6. Marietta 9-2
7.  UWL 9-2
8. Wheaton 11-2
9. CNU 13-2
10. Yeshiva 14-1

[thebear]

Has anyone noticed that Massey hasn't updated in a while, since well before the new year?

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Rewatching first half of Yeshiva/IWU. Do I have it correct that Steinmetz didn't use a timeout until they were down 20? I get that he's not accustomed to media timeouts but man, that seems like a self inflicted wound.

He tends to be of the John Wooden school of calling TOs (in that he doesn't usually do it, trusting the guys on the court to figure things out) - I'm more surprised he used it at all.  Obviously, it was a pretty desperate spot, but Yeshiva doesn't really have other sets on offense or defense that they might switch to.  That's one thing they might add moving forward coming out of this game - just a few set plays or some different defensive schemes if they're really getting toasted like they did on Thursday.

[Greek Tragedy]

The question mark for me with Yeshiva is how they handle WIAC/CCIW type size.  6-6 Leiffer is a great player...but is he big enough to handle the best D3 5s?  I don't know.

IWU's 6-7/235 All-American F Matt Leritz is not a Jack Flynn type (Matt is more of a 4)...but Leiffer vs Leritz will be really interesting on 12/30 in NYC.  And IWU will have a few more 6-7+ types in the low post rotation...I'm interested to see how Yeshiva handles that.

Thursday's game demonstrated what I've been wondering about.  I think Yeshiva matches up great with many Top 25 teams, but I think they would have challenges with the biggest, strongest, most physical teams - the top CCIW and WIAC teams, and WashU to name a few.  The Macs were physically dominated against IWU -- look no further than IWU's +20 rebounding margin.

YU will have to find a way to adjust to this style of play between now and March.

Are there any teams "out East" with any size? I mean, if Yeshiva has to adjust, they probably won't have to worry about a WIAC/CCIW team until the Final Four or the Elite 8 at the earliest.