Top 25 talk

[SpringSt7]

I'm a Williams fan and I don't think they should get credit for scheduling Yeshiva because this program was a lot different in 2017 when they first played. Although if I'm Kevin App I probably don't love the way this turned out, getting them again with a 5th (5 and a half?) year Gabe Leifer and senior Ryan Turell. I think the original scheduling agreement ended after 3 years so maybe they do deserve credit for renewing.

[WUPHF]

In my mind, 9 wins in the UAA is much better than 7-8 and Chicago has only had 9 wins once in the last 10 years or so.  It is true though, I think Chicago could finish at the bottom of the league along with NYU.

They have found a way to get a few big wins the last few seasons so I may pay for that comment as early as this weekend but I don't think so....

I did watch Chicago and Marrieta and did not feel that the outcome was in doubt.  Just my gut.

They were rumors earlier this year among the soccer community that Chicago was considering leaving the UAA, but I feel like I hear a rumor every few years about someone.

[Titan Q]

If the season ended today, I believe these would be the 4 top resumes.  If (huge if) geography worked out, brackets would be built around these.

1) RMC: .909/.691/5-1

2) IWU: .818/.647/5-2

3) UWO: .923/.636/5-1

4) Marietta: .800/.687/3-2
----
5) CNU: .867/.636/4-2


Data courtesy of Matt Snyder: https://tomaroonandgold.blogspot.com/p/division-iii-mens-regional-rankings.html

(RRO numbers are just my best guess as of today.)

[Gregory Sager]

They were rumors earlier this year among the soccer community that Chicago was considering leaving the UAA, but I feel like I hear a rumor every few years about someone.

I haven't heard that, but your rumor mill might be built upon a sturdier foundation than my rumor mill.

I can't imagine Chicago ever leaving the UAA, which would mean leaving behind about 80%-90% of its peer institutions in D3. Travel expenses obviously aren't a problem, so the only possible motivation I could imagine for seceding from the UAA would be time spent off campus. But even that would be a questionable tradeoff. The likely candidate for conference membership if the U of C ever abandoned the UAA would be the MWC, Chicago's former home in the pre-UAA days and the current home of the Maroons football program as an associate member. But that would mean midweek trips to places like Ripon and Grinnell and Illinois College and Lawrence that are arguably more disruptive to a student-athlete's class schedule than the Friday/Sunday pattern of UAA travel (which only happens three times every year for each Maroons team).

It just doesn't make any sense to me. (And I can't imagine that the Maroons soccer players and coaches would support it, since the UAA is one of the two best soccer leagues in D3, while the MWC is ... well, let's be charitable and just say that the MWC is somewhat soccer-challenged. Then again, UAA to MWC would be a pretty significant step down in almost every sport that the UAA sponsors.)

It would really stink for you Wash U types as well, although you don't get any say in your archrival's decision-making.

[jaybird44]

It wouldn't surprise me to see an eventual unraveling of the UAA in all sports.

I don't have any inside baseball information regarding that, just noticing a general slide in that direction over the years. 

UAA dropped football when it became apparent that a conference really couldn't subsist on having just 4 teams.  Those four teams went to become affiliate members in other conferences.  Look at baseball and softball.  A difference in the University of Chicago's semester format has kept it from competing with other UAA schools.  As a result, UAA baseball has only five teams (also minus Carnegie Mellon) and thus has no AQ to play for.  Carnegie competes in softball, but there are still only six softball teams in the UAA--again, no AQ to play for.  Unless an additional school or two can be brought on as affiliates to the UAA, I could eventually see some of those baseball/softball playing schools in the UAA looking elsewhere.

Which leaves us with basketball and soccer (men's and women's).  I would hope that the strong and entertaining competition among UAA teams in those sports will continue to entice those programs to stay in the UAA.  But, let's now look at the current airline travel problems going on now--if these persist, do the UAA schools figure it's worth the hassle, expense, and risk of having to cancel games because of those problems?  Or, do they start believing that regionally-based bus rides are more economical and present a better opportunity of getting scheduled games played as we move forward with COVID riding shotgun with us?

WashU's affiliate membership with the CCIW, in my opinion, was not just done with the short-sighted future of its football program in mind.  It was a long-term move where WashU could end up seeking full CCIW membership if the UAA crumbled under the weight of the all the things I mentioned.  Again, I have no inside information on this--just making some observations on what has happened, and what could happen, given the current situation that is blanketed heavily by COVID and its ripple effects on D3 college athletics.

I fervently hope that the UAA remains intact, and that will be up to the administrations of the universities involved in the conference.  I think the allure is still there for basketball and soccer, but there are the aforementioned COVID-related issues that will serve as stressors to that allure.

[blue_jays]

They were rumors earlier this year among the soccer community that Chicago was considering leaving the UAA, but I feel like I hear a rumor every few years about someone.

I haven't heard that, but your rumor mill might be built upon a sturdier foundation than my rumor mill.

I can't imagine Chicago ever leaving the UAA, which would mean leaving behind about 80%-90% of its peer institutions in D3. Travel expenses obviously aren't a problem, so the only possible motivation I could imagine for seceding from the UAA would be time spent off campus. But even that would be a questionable tradeoff. The likely candidate for conference membership if the U of C ever abandoned the UAA would be the MWC, Chicago's former home in the pre-UAA days and the current home of the Maroons football program as an associate member. But that would mean midweek trips to places like Ripon and Grinnell and Illinois College and Lawrence that are arguably more disruptive to a student-athlete's class schedule than the Friday/Sunday pattern of UAA travel (which only happens three times every year for each Maroons team).

It just doesn't make any sense to me. (And I can't imagine that the Maroons soccer players and coaches would support it, since the UAA is one of the two best soccer leagues in D3, while the MWC is ... well, let's be charitable and just say that the MWC is somewhat soccer-challenged. Then again, UAA to MWC would be a pretty significant step down in almost every sport that the UAA sponsors.)

It would really stink for you Wash U types as well, although you don't get any say in your archrival's decision-making.

The rumor is entirely made up. UChicago wants to stay in the UAA, it's a boon for their recruiting and prestige. No reason to look for greener pastures. It benefits them to stay in the UAA in every sport outside of football, baseball and softball. Leaving to join the MWC would only hurt them. And remember this factor as well: the University administration likes the fact UChicago is in the UAA as well, and that importance can not be discounted.
UChicago has been an independent in softball for decades and likes it that way. Baseball was in the same boat and finally latched onto MWC in recent years for the same reason football did: they were improving into a legitimate playoff threat and wanted to get a shot at an automatic bid.
Besides, the MWC has several member schools who want to boot UChicago out right now because of how immediately good they were in baseball and football. The chances of them getting full MWC membership are even more remote than them voluntarily leaving the UAA.

[nescac1]

If the UAA did ever break up, there would certainly be some leagues absolutely delighted to add those teams.  Just for fun, I imagine it going like this:

Rochester - Liberty League (no brainer)
Brandeis - NEWMAC (no brainer)
NYU - probably Liberty League
Carnegie Mellon -- NCAC
Wash U -- CCIW
Chicago -- CCIW
Emory -- SAA
Case Western -- NCAC

I think Emory would be the biggest loser there.  Rochester and NYU could together join an already strong conference and make it loaded.  Wash U and Chicago would make the CCIW even stronger and certainly adding St. Louis and Chicago would be appealing to the league for recruiting purposes.  Brandeis is a perfect fit in NEWMAC, which already has natural rivals in Babson and MIT.  Case and Carnegie would together make already-solid NCAC a lot deeper in quality and could continue on as natural rivals.  All of those leagues already have suitable academic profiles. 

SAA is the only league Emory could really join and it might not be delighted to do so, but it would save a huge amount on travel if it did and would instantly dominate the league in nearly every sport, so it would be a guaranteed NCAA appearance for like 3/4 of Emory's teams each year, so not all bad!

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Wouldn't it be more likely the UAA would add two members than dissolve?  If they're short on a few sports, that makes the most sense.  Even at ten, you're only looking at four travel weekends.

[nescac1]

If they did want to add two members, Johns Hopkins and MIT would be the perfect fits.  I'm not sure if they would want to leave their current situations, where they travel a heck of a lot less.  They are already in high-caliber academic leagues and it's not like either school needs the small bump in prestige associated with the UAA.  But they are easily the two most UAA-y schools not currently in the UAA.  I can't even really think of another obvious candidate ..

[SpringSt7]

It feels like all the UAA schools would take a big hit in academic reputation if that league dissolves. A lot of those schools obviously can stand on their own much like MIT and Hopkins regardless of the leagues they are in, but it really does benefit all of the members to stay associated with each other.

It would never happen in a million years but Tufts feels much more UAA-ish than Brandeis and would be a much more high profile Boston school, if for whatever reason they chose to go that direction. They probably don't standout as much as they would ultimately in the high academic echelon of Boston/New England.

A more interesting question would be whether or not the UAA could grab 2 schools that drop down from D1 to D3---they would be very attractive to schools looking to maintain a somewhat national profile and boost their academic standing. Coming from D1 probably wouldn't be as averse to rigorous travel.

[WUPHF]

OK, I was probably a little careless to throw that rumor out there but I was surprised at the source.  The person knows way more than my Emory source, lol.

I can imagine Chicago kicking around the idea in part because they need the group membership prestige less than any other member of the UAA and they are regularly thinking about important projects such as increasing socio-economic diversity and the like.

Having said that, I think the rumor is crazy-talk and that there is no way they leave.  Especially given how well the Maroons have performed as an athletic department over the past few seasons.  They are rolling. 

I agree on the CCIW move as well.  I have no idea how that worked out but it was a brilliant short term and long term move by Washington University.  I hope the CCIW programs agree.

[WUPHF]

But hey, that did prompt an interesting conversation on a slow new day so thanks guys.  Tufts would be the most logical next choice and I am 99% was part of the conversation in 1985-1986.  That conversation may have been entirely one-sided but a conversation nonetheless.

The prospect of a Division I school moving down is also interesting and one I never considered.  I could see a Lehigh dropping down as an example.  They have big plans to increase their already great academic profile and need to be financially prudent.

But yeah, I don't think there is any need to ponder a new member any time soon.

[deiscanton]

Speaking of the UAA, you might find it interesting to read UAA Executive Vice President Richard Rasmussen's doctoral dissertation, which he wrote in 1997 in pursuit of his doctoral degree from the University of Rochester.  Mr. Rasmussen has served the UAA from the beginning in 1987 in what was first known as the UAA Executive Secretary, and is now known as Executive Vice President.  His 165 page dissertation is a case study in the formation of the University Athletic Association, and can be read here: 

The Role of Intercollegiate Athletics in the Academy-- A Case Study in the Formation of the UAA

It is worth noting to begin with that in addition to the 9 institutions that would become the charter members of the UAA:  (Brandeis, Carnegie Mellon, Case Western Reserve, Chicago, Emory, Johns Hopkins, NYU, Rochester, Wash U), 4 other institutions were also invited to the meetings of 1985 and 1986 that would form the UAA.  The 1985 meetings were held at Rochester, and the 1986 meetings were held at Wash U.  These additional four that were invited to the meetings were MIT, Cal Tech, Rice, and Tulane, and of these four, MIT participated in the talks but decided not to join the UAA.  The case study goes into further detail on these meetings, and gives a detail on why each of the charter members decided to join the UAA to begin with.  It also goes into detail as to why MIT declined to join the UAA, and why Cal Tech, Rice, and Tulane chose not to participate in the UAA's formation meetings.

As you read the dissertation, it is reasonable to ask:  How have circumstances changed between the mid 1980s and now that would make the UAA no longer a feasible association?

[WUPHF]

That is awesome, thanks for sharing.... In regards to my Tufts conversation suggestion, I am referring to the preliminary conversations held with the Washington University Dean who engaged other schools in conversation to lay the groundwork.  I believe his original list had 30 or so perspective schools.  Maybe that is covered by the dissertation.

[thebear]

Re: Liberty League, they already have 10 in basketball, Adding NYU & Rochester to get to 12 would probably mean going to divisions. 

They also have 5 [Clarkson, RPI, RIT, SLU, & Union] of the hybrid programs that play D-I M & W Ice Hockey and D-III in all other sports.

Not sure that RIT would be thrilled with U of R also in the league.