Top 25 talk

Started by Lurker, March 23, 2005, 09:02:04 AM

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ziggy

Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 25, 2023, 01:36:25 PM
That's a good point about the variation in tiers between conference polls and the D3hoops.com preseason balloting.

One correction, and I assume that it's just an oversight on your part unconsciously caused by yesterday's Twitter commotion that sprang from a D3 Region V fan's suggestion that Wheaton should be a preseason contender from the CCIW based upon Massey's (totally flawed) preseason ratings: You typed "Wheaton" in your second paragraph where I think you intended to type "Illinois Wesleyan".

Yes, thank you for understanding what I meant and not what I wrote.  :P
It has been fixed above.

Pat Coleman

Behind-the-curtain stuff:

Nichols did not respond to our two requests for information, and neither did someone else who will nonetheless be getting a lot of votes and a high ranking.

Also, just remember that's just a sampling of the votes, and its generally "media" votes at that. The final vote could be quite different.
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nescac1

#13907
Early take on best conferences this year:

1. UAA - absolutely loaded with NYU, CWRU, Wash U and Emory all potentially elite and Brandeis, UChicago, and CMU likely much improved sleeper teams.  No league has benefited more from COVID transfer rules. Brutal, brutal league this year.   
2. OAC - JCU and Mount Union are both top-tier contenders, Marietta should be much improved, Otterbein and Heidelberg are solid
3. WIAC - WIAC is WIAC but the top two leagues are so loaded that for now I'll stick them third and probably end up regretting it.  Whitewater, Platteville and Oshkosh all look strong, particularly top-five team Whitewater. 
4. ODAC - HSC looks loaded, and Guilford, RMC, W&L and Virginia Wesleyan could all be in contention for tourney spots.
5. CCIW - as discussed extensively on this thread, the top four look very closely grouped and all could make some noise 
6. NESCAC - looks like, outside of Williams, a rebuilding year for NESCAC with loads of big time players lost to transfer and graduation and many teams in transition.  But some younger players will surely step up and surprise.

Others to watch: ASC, Centennial, NJAC, MIAA 

ziggy

Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 25, 2023, 02:01:12 PM
Behind-the-curtain stuff:

Nichols did not respond to our two requests for information, and neither did someone else who will nonetheless be getting a lot of votes and a high ranking.

Also, just remember that's just a sampling of the votes, and its generally "media" votes at that. The final vote could be quite different.

Excellent reminder. Particularly at the bottom of the Top 25 there can be some big swings from what we think we know to what actually happens. This was the case last year where Wabash went from receiving no votes on the 7 ballots we knew about to being just outside the preseason Top 25 poll as the top ORV team. Elmhurst started the season in the poll after being named on only one of the seven public ballots. It seems the unknown ballots skew more heavily to "were good last season so I'm voting for them" than the known ballots.

The tracker did pretty well inside the top 21 last year. My suggestion for anyone following along for this preseason poll is to think of of the top 20 as a projected safe zone for getting ranked and look at the current ranking as +/- 5 spots.


Gregory Sager

Wheaton, which is almost entirely depleted from last season in terms of production and which doesn't appear to have brought in any big-splash newbies, got 45 points in the poll -- which means that multiple voters had WC on their ballots. I'm just shaking my head in disbelief over that.

The CCIW coaches, who know a lot more about their league than do the D3hoops.com voters (although their preseason-poll track record is far from perfect), have Wheaton right smack dab in the middle of their preseason poll at #5, a country mile behind #4 Illinois Wesleyan.

Quote from: ziggy on October 25, 2023, 02:33:33 PMIt seems the unknown ballots skew more heavily to "were good last season so I'm voting for them" than the known ballots.

True. But Pat goes to a lot of trouble to produce those information packets for his voters in order to give them some clue as to which players are returning and who's been added, complete with production figures. One almost gets the feeling that there are voters who just toss Pat's packet aside and say, "Well, this program is always good, and it got deep into the tourney last season, so what more do I need to know about them?"
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Greek Tragedy

Yeah, the coaches definitely know a lot more about their league than the D3hoops.com guys...they voted Wheaton's Mike Schauer Conference Coach of the Year while the D3hoops.com guys voted North Park's Sean Smith their National Coach of the Year. Clearly the guys at D3hoops.com have no idea what they are doing...

Sarcasm, Greg, sarcasm.
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Gregory Sager

Quote from: Greek Tragedy on October 26, 2023, 05:06:50 PM
Yeah, the coaches definitely know a lot more about their league than the D3hoops.com guys...they voted Wheaton's Mike Schauer Conference Coach of the Year while the D3hoops.com guys voted North Park's Sean Smith their National Coach of the Year. Clearly the guys at D3hoops.com have no idea what they are doing...

Sarcasm, Greg, sarcasm.

Deflection, Tom, deflection. ;) It's got nothing to do with last year, and everything to do with this year.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

WUPHF

As NYU comes in ranked No. 1 in both the Men's and Women's UAA coaches polls and the highest among UAA schools in the d3hoops polls (or due to be highest), it is interesting to look back at prior conversations...

Examples include...

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on April 25, 2022, 04:15:04 PM
I keep hearing that the financial aid situation at NYU makes recruiting competitively with similar schools very difficult.  I don't know all the details or even enough to evaluate that claim with any credibility, but I do hear it a lot.

Quote from: gordonmann on April 25, 2022, 05:56:27 PM
I interviewed Dagan when he took the job and asked him about recruiting. Not sure if it was on air or not, but he said that recruiting to NYU was very difficult because the school offered no financial aid. So, while schools like Williams are going one direction, NYU was already going the other.

Darryl Nester

It looks like my program still works!

I assume that the first in-season poll is coming out a week from tomorrow, so here is the report through today, as well as games coming up in the next week.

Let me know if you see anything "off" in this report; it is possible that a couple of exhibition results got included.


How They Fared (So Far)

Top 25

Rank   Pts   TeamW-L   Results
#1624Christopher Newport3-2def. (n) Kenyon, 94-68; LOST at Marietta, 69-73; def. #14 Randolph-Macon, 64-54;
def. #12 Johns Hopkins, 75-73; 11/25 vs. Buffalo State; 11/26 vs. #27 Rowan
#2580UW-Whitewater3-0def. Gustavus Adolphus, 88-59; def. St. Mary's (Minn.), 71-53; def. Carroll, 86-77; 11/21 vs. Augustana;
11/25 at Ripon
#3519John Carroll4-0def. (n) SUNY Geneseo, 76-66; won at SUNY Oneonta, 106-75; def. (n) Penn State-Harrisburg, 83-63;
won at Susquehanna, 83-73
#4507Keene State2-1def. Western New England, 105-69; LOST to (n) #31 Stockton, 71-87; def. (n) #30 UW-Platteville, 93-75;
11/21 at Connecticut College; 11/25 at MIT
#5496Mount Union4-0def. (n) Gwynedd Mercy, 89-82 OT; won at Chatham, 97-73; won at Scranton, 80-76 OT;
def. Pitt-Greensburg, 113-79; 11/22 vs. Wooster
#6431Oswego State3-0def. SUNYIT, 104-66; def. RPI, 73-45; def. Clarkson, 92-83; 11/21 vs. Nazareth
#7389Williams4-1LOST at T#43 WPI, 62-77; def. (n) Dickinson, 64-32; won at Vassar, 82-75; def. Worcester State, 69-62;
def. St. Lawrence, 66-58 OT; 11/21 vs. Massachusetts College
#8382Hampden-Sydney4-0def. Greensboro, 74-48; def. (n) T#46 Widener, 72-63; def. (n) Rose-Hulman, 80-66
#9332New York University3-1def. #12 Johns Hopkins, 71-67; LOST to #11 Swarthmore, 70-71; won at Yeshiva, 97-78; 11/22 at Caltech;
11/25 at #49 Redlands
#10326Calvin3-0def. Denison, 75-64; def. (n) Marietta, 68-51; def. (n) La Roche, 74-54; 11/24 vs. Concordia (Wis.);
11/25 vs. Wilmington
#11325Swarthmore3-1LOST to (n) #22 Washington U., 56-76; won at #9 New York University, 71-70; won at Cabrini, 82-76;
def. #35 DeSales, 68-64; 11/21 vs. Muhlenberg
#12308Johns Hopkins2-3LOST at #9 New York University, 67-71; LOST to (n) #22 Washington U., 61-67; won at York (Pa.), 64-62;
LOST at #1 Christopher Newport, 73-75; 11/21 vs. Gettysburg
#13275Case Western Reserve4-0def. Pitt-Bradford, 104-73; def. Eastern, 82-72; won at La Roche, 78-58; won at Denison, 80-74 OT
#14244Randolph-Macon1-2def. (n) Pfeiffer, 84-59; LOST at Virginia Wesleyan, 44-49; LOST at #1 Christopher Newport, 54-64;
11/19 vs. Cal Lutheran
#15234Mary Hardin-Baylor2-1def. (n) UW-Stout, 84-71; won at #52 Illinois Wesleyan, 71-68; LOST at Texas Lutheran, 77-78;
11/24 at #34 St. Thomas (Texas)
#16179Wabash2-2LOST to Anderson, 67-72; def. (n) #21 North Park, 70-63; LOST at Illinois College, 53-68; 11/21 at Earlham;
11/26 vs. Rose-Hulman
#17165Catholic3-0def. Stevens, 79-74; def. (n) St. Mary's (Md.), 67-65; 11/19 vs. Hood; 11/21 vs. Marymount
#18159Carthage3-1won at Westminster (Pa.), 85-66; def. (n) Thiel, 70-66; LOST at Ripon, 71-76; won at Marian, 75-67;
11/20 vs. Anderson
#19133Emory1-1won at Piedmont, 91-83; LOST at #26 Guilford, 80-83 OT; 11/21 at Birmingham-Southern; 11/26 at T#41 Berry
#20122East Texas Baptist0-2LOST at #53 Pomona-Pitzer, 59-75; LOST at #49 Redlands, 65-99; 11/21 vs. #34 St. Thomas (Texas)
#21120North Park2-2def. Marian, 85-68; LOST to (n) #16 Wabash, 63-70; LOST to (n) Coe, 66-86; 11/25 at #25 UW-Oshkosh
#22116Washington U.4-0def. (n) #11 Swarthmore, 76-56; def. (n) #12 Johns Hopkins, 67-61; def. (n) #36 Babson, 90-85 OT;
def. Hanover, 77-62; 11/22 vs. #52 Illinois Wesleyan; 11/26 at Rhodes
#23113Claremont-Mudd-Scripps2-0def. UC Santa Cruz, 81-44; won at Southwestern, 61-59; 11/19 vs. Trinity (Texas); 11/24 vs. George Fox;
11/25 vs. #45 Carleton
#2496Middlebury0-4LOST to #29 St. Joseph (Conn.), 62-68; LOST at Clark, 66-70; LOST to (n) #49 Redlands, 58-83;
LOST at Wittenberg, 73-76; 11/26 vs. Endicott
#2593UW-Oshkosh2-1def. (n) La Roche, 77-68; LOST to (n) #49 Redlands, 62-82; 11/21 at Edgewood; 11/25 vs. #21 North Park


Others receiving votes
Rank   Pts   TeamW-L   Results
#2689Guilford3-0won at N.C. Wesleyan, 75-59; def. #19 Emory, 83-80 OT; 11/21 vs. Pfeiffer
#2783Rowan3-0def. (n) Maryville (Tenn.), 94-90; def. (n) Wooster, 78-77; won at Eastern, 114-86; 11/21 vs. #31 Stockton;
11/25 vs. T#32 Mary Washington; 11/26 at #1 Christopher Newport
#2864Nichols3-1def. Bridgewater State, 93-83; LOST at #29 St. Joseph (Conn.), 70-77; def. Anna Maria, 65-60; 11/19 at Yeshiva
#2963St. Joseph (Conn.)4-1won at #24 Middlebury, 68-62; def. #28 Nichols, 77-70; def. (n) Colby, 79-70;
LOST to (n) #55 Trinity (Conn.), 58-70
#3062UW-Platteville3-1def. St. Mary's (Minn.), 91-71; def. Gustavus Adolphus, 79-67; def. (n) St. John's, 80-78;
LOST to (n) #4 Keene State, 75-93; 11/25 vs. Central
#3153Stockton2-2LOST to (n) Roanoke, 75-84; def. (n) King's, 91-75; def. (n) #4 Keene State, 87-71;
LOST to (n) St. John's, 64-77; 11/21 at #27 Rowan
T#3245Wheaton (Ill.)1-3def. Lake Forest, 86-65; LOST to Piedmont, 66-79; LOST to Heidelberg, 60-78; 11/25 at Transylvania
T#3245Mary Washington3-1def. N.C. Wesleyan, 81-56; won at Hood, 81-72; def. Lynchburg, 79-52; 11/25 vs. #27 Rowan;
11/26 vs. Buffalo State
#3441St. Thomas (Texas)3-1def. Arlington Baptist, 97-61; def. Hardin-Simmons, 73-71; def. Texas-Dallas, 70-67;
11/21 at #20 East Texas Baptist; 11/24 vs. #15 Mary Hardin-Baylor; 11/26 vs. McMurry
#3539DeSales2-1def. Rosemont, 92-53; def. TCNJ, 72-62; LOST at #11 Swarthmore, 64-68; 11/21 at Moravian
#3635Babson2-2LOST at Albertus Magnus, 72-75; LOST to (n) #22 Washington U., 85-90 OT; def. (n) UW-Eau Claire, 78-71;
11/22 vs. Brandeis; 11/26 at Bates
#3728Elmhurst3-0def. Concordia-Chicago, 77-72; won at Transylvania, 87-63; won at Mount St. Joseph, 73-56; 11/25 at Olivet
#3823Utica2-1def. SUNY Potsdam, 86-70; LOST at Morrisville State, 72-85; won at Buffalo State, 86-57; 11/20 vs. SUNYIT
T#3919Hope1-0def. Manchester, 75-64; 11/24 vs. Wilmington; 11/25 vs. Concordia (Wis.)
T#3919Maryville2-2LOST to (n) #27 Rowan, 90-94; LOST at Rochester, 66-87; won at Sewanee, 73-70;
def. (n) Westminster (Mo.), 87-68; 11/19 at Webster; 11/26 at Averett
T#4118Berry1-2LOST at Belhaven, 87-94; def. (n) Southern Virginia, 86-76; LOST at Roanoke, 58-79; 11/21 at LaGrange;
11/26 vs. #19 Emory
T#4118Trine4-0def. (n) Hanover, 85-63; won at Mount St. Joseph, 71-54; def. Franklin, 79-58; def. Baldwin Wallace, 76-70;
11/25 vs. Ohio Wesleyan
T#4316WPI5-0def. #7 Williams, 77-62; def. St. Joseph's (Maine), 69-49; def. (n) Johnson and Wales, 85-51;
won at Bridgewater State, 84-65; 11/20 at Fitchburg State
T#4316Tufts3-0won at Endicott, 78-63; def. Emerson, 72-53; won at Suffolk, 76-62; 11/21 at MIT; 11/25 at Mass-Boston
#4514Carleton1-0def. North Central (Minn.), 57-50; 11/21 vs. St. John's; 11/24 at #53 Pomona-Pitzer;
11/25 at #23 Claremont-Mudd-Scripps
T#4610St. Norbert3-0won at UW-Eau Claire, 76-64; def. Lawrence, 86-55; 11/21 vs. Concordia-Chicago
T#4610Widener4-1def. King's, 105-80; def. Roanoke, 85-74; def. Ursinus, 86-73; LOST to (n) #8 Hampden-Sydney, 63-72;
won at Wooster, 72-68; 11/26 vs. Salisbury
#489Hamilton1-1LOST to Ithaca, 67-74; def. Morrisville State, 90-68; 11/19 vs. Neumann; 11/21 at Drew
#498Redlands4-0def. Puget Sound, 112-82; def. #20 East Texas Baptist, 99-65; def. (n) #24 Middlebury, 83-58;
def. (n) #25 UW-Oshkosh, 82-62; 11/25 vs. #9 New York University
T#507Whitman1-2def. St. Olaf, 80-64; LOST to Carnegie Mellon, 75-86; LOST to (n) Trinity (Texas), 58-86;
11/19 at Southwestern; 11/22 at University of Dallas
T#507Macalester3-1won at Wartburg, 75-72; won at UW-Stout, 102-93; won at MIT, 92-72; 11/21 vs. Concordia-Moorhead
#526Illinois Wesleyan2-2def. Ohio Wesleyan, 84-55; LOST to #15 Mary Hardin-Baylor, 68-71; won at Wittenberg, 72-59;
LOST to (n) Marietta, 63-67; 11/22 at #22 Washington U.; 11/25 vs. Chicago
#535Pomona-Pitzer3-0def. #20 East Texas Baptist, 75-59; def. Stanton, 82-56; def. UC Santa Cruz, 74-66; 11/24 vs. #45 Carleton;
11/25 vs. George Fox
#544Montclair State2-1won at Lycoming, 85-49; won at Penn College, 89-87; LOST to Albertus Magnus, 83-86 2OT;
11/21 vs. New Jersey City
#551Trinity (Conn.)5-0won at Regis (Mass.), 71-56; def. Hartford, 74-38; def. Wheaton (Mass.), 74-57; won at Mass-Dartmouth, 84-52;
def. (n) #29 St. Joseph (Conn.), 70-58; 11/21 at Elms

SpringSt7

Good luck to the voters - lot of information to sort through for the first poll.

Flying Dutch Fan

Quote from: Darryl Nester on November 19, 2023, 01:29:22 PM
It looks like my program still works!

I assume that the first in-season poll is coming out a week from tomorrow, so here is the report through today, as well as games coming up in the next week.

Let me know if you see anything "off" in this report; it is possible that a couple of exhibition results got included.

Awesome to see you posting this again - thank you Darryl!!!  One quick correction - appears that you are missing the scores for the CNU loss at Hampden-Sydney (74-53 on 11/8) - and it is also missing for H-S.  You've got both teams records right but that game is not listed
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Darryl Nester

Quote from: Flying Dutch Fan on November 20, 2023, 08:20:24 AM
Quote from: Darryl Nester on November 19, 2023, 01:29:22 PM
It looks like my program still works!

I assume that the first in-season poll is coming out a week from tomorrow, so here is the report through today, as well as games coming up in the next week.

Let me know if you see anything "off" in this report; it is possible that a couple of exhibition results got included.

Awesome to see you posting this again - thank you Darryl!!!  One quick correction - appears that you are missing the scores for the CNU loss at Hampden-Sydney (74-53 on 11/8) - and it is also missing for H-S.  You've got both teams records right but that game is not listed

Thanks for the correction, FDF. It looks like I missed all of the results for 11/8; for the first run of the season, I have to manually specify when the season started, and I forgot that my program starts collecting scores from the day AFTER the one I specify.

I won't bother correcting the post above, but I'll make sure I get it right in next Sunday's report.

nescac1

Not sure if any future games count, but based on what has transpired to date, I'd guess that Hopkins, RMC, Wabash, Carthage, East Texas Baptist, North Park, Middlebury, Oshkosh are out, and replaced by:

Guilford, Redlands, WPI, Rowan, Elmhurst, Tufts, Trine, Trinity.  Nichols and St. Joe's have a case but St. Joe's beat Nichols, Trinity beat St. Joe's, and Trinity has otherwise been undefeated so they squeeze in.

Biggest risers: Wash U., Redlands, WPI, Hampden Sydney, all of whom should rocket up.

Battle for number one: Whitewater, JCU and HSC are the top three contenders, but Oswego, Wash U., Calvin and Redlands all have an argument! 

WPI89

First in season poll is today, correct?