Top 25 talk

[ziggy]

That's a good point about the variation in tiers between conference polls and the D3hoops.com preseason balloting.

One correction, and I assume that it's just an oversight on your part unconsciously caused by yesterday's Twitter commotion that sprang from a D3 Region V fan's suggestion that Wheaton should be a preseason contender from the CCIW based upon Massey's (totally flawed) preseason ratings: You typed "Wheaton" in your second paragraph where I think you intended to type "Illinois Wesleyan".

Yes, thank you for understanding what I meant and not what I wrote. 
It has been fixed above.

[Pat Coleman]

Behind-the-curtain stuff:

Nichols did not respond to our two requests for information, and neither did someone else who will nonetheless be getting a lot of votes and a high ranking.

Also, just remember that's just a sampling of the votes, and its generally "media" votes at that. The final vote could be quite different.

[nescac1]

Early take on best conferences this year:

1. UAA - absolutely loaded with NYU, CWRU, Wash U and Emory all potentially elite and Brandeis, UChicago, and CMU likely much improved sleeper teams.  No league has benefited more from COVID transfer rules. Brutal, brutal league this year.   
2. OAC - JCU and Mount Union are both top-tier contenders, Marietta should be much improved, Otterbein and Heidelberg are solid
3. WIAC - WIAC is WIAC but the top two leagues are so loaded that for now I'll stick them third and probably end up regretting it.  Whitewater, Platteville and Oshkosh all look strong, particularly top-five team Whitewater. 
4. ODAC - HSC looks loaded, and Guilford, RMC, W&L and Virginia Wesleyan could all be in contention for tourney spots.
5. CCIW - as discussed extensively on this thread, the top four look very closely grouped and all could make some noise 
6. NESCAC - looks like, outside of Williams, a rebuilding year for NESCAC with loads of big time players lost to transfer and graduation and many teams in transition.  But some younger players will surely step up and surprise.

Others to watch: ASC, Centennial, NJAC, MIAA 

[ziggy]

Behind-the-curtain stuff:

Nichols did not respond to our two requests for information, and neither did someone else who will nonetheless be getting a lot of votes and a high ranking.

Also, just remember that's just a sampling of the votes, and its generally "media" votes at that. The final vote could be quite different.

Excellent reminder. Particularly at the bottom of the Top 25 there can be some big swings from what we think we know to what actually happens. This was the case last year where Wabash went from receiving no votes on the 7 ballots we knew about to being just outside the preseason Top 25 poll as the top ORV team. Elmhurst started the season in the poll after being named on only one of the seven public ballots. It seems the unknown ballots skew more heavily to "were good last season so I'm voting for them" than the known ballots.

The tracker did pretty well inside the top 21 last year. My suggestion for anyone following along for this preseason poll is to think of of the top 20 as a projected safe zone for getting ranked and look at the current ranking as +/- 5 spots.

[ziggy]

Preaseason poll has been released: https://d3hoops.com/top25/men/2023-24/preseason

[Gregory Sager]

Wheaton, which is almost entirely depleted from last season in terms of production and which doesn't appear to have brought in any big-splash newbies, got 45 points in the poll -- which means that multiple voters had WC on their ballots. I'm just shaking my head in disbelief over that.

The CCIW coaches, who know a lot more about their league than do the D3hoops.com voters (although their preseason-poll track record is far from perfect), have Wheaton right smack dab in the middle of their preseason poll at #5, a country mile behind #4 Illinois Wesleyan.

It seems the unknown ballots skew more heavily to "were good last season so I'm voting for them" than the known ballots.

True. But Pat goes to a lot of trouble to produce those information packets for his voters in order to give them some clue as to which players are returning and who's been added, complete with production figures. One almost gets the feeling that there are voters who just toss Pat's packet aside and say, "Well, this program is always good, and it got deep into the tourney last season, so what more do I need to know about them?"

[Greek Tragedy]

Yeah, the coaches definitely know a lot more about their league than the D3hoops.com guys...they voted Wheaton's Mike Schauer Conference Coach of the Year while the D3hoops.com guys voted North Park's Sean Smith their National Coach of the Year. Clearly the guys at D3hoops.com have no idea what they are doing...

Sarcasm, Greg, sarcasm.

[Gregory Sager]

Yeah, the coaches definitely know a lot more about their league than the D3hoops.com guys...they voted Wheaton's Mike Schauer Conference Coach of the Year while the D3hoops.com guys voted North Park's Sean Smith their National Coach of the Year. Clearly the guys at D3hoops.com have no idea what they are doing...

Sarcasm, Greg, sarcasm.

Deflection, Tom, deflection. It's got nothing to do with last year, and everything to do with this year.

[WUPHF]

As NYU comes in ranked No. 1 in both the Men's and Women's UAA coaches polls and the highest among UAA schools in the d3hoops polls (or due to be highest), it is interesting to look back at prior conversations...

Examples include...

I keep hearing that the financial aid situation at NYU makes recruiting competitively with similar schools very difficult.  I don't know all the details or even enough to evaluate that claim with any credibility, but I do hear it a lot.

I interviewed Dagan when he took the job and asked him about recruiting. Not sure if it was on air or not, but he said that recruiting to NYU was very difficult because the school offered no financial aid. So, while schools like Williams are going one direction, NYU was already going the other.

[Darryl Nester]

It looks like my program still works!

I assume that the first in-season poll is coming out a week from tomorrow, so here is the report through today, as well as games coming up in the next week.

Let me know if you see anything "off" in this report; it is possible that a couple of exhibition results got included.

How They Fared (So Far)

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	624	Christopher Newport	3-2	def. (n) Kenyon, 94-68; LOST at Marietta, 69-73; def. #14 Randolph-Macon, 64-54; def. #12 Johns Hopkins, 75-73; 11/25 vs. Buffalo State; 11/26 vs. #27 Rowan
#2	580	UW-Whitewater	3-0	def. Gustavus Adolphus, 88-59; def. St. Mary's (Minn.), 71-53; def. Carroll, 86-77; 11/21 vs. Augustana; 11/25 at Ripon
#3	519	John Carroll	4-0	def. (n) SUNY Geneseo, 76-66; won at SUNY Oneonta, 106-75; def. (n) Penn State-Harrisburg, 83-63; won at Susquehanna, 83-73
#4	507	Keene State	2-1	def. Western New England, 105-69; LOST to (n) #31 Stockton, 71-87; def. (n) #30 UW-Platteville, 93-75; 11/21 at Connecticut College; 11/25 at MIT
#5	496	Mount Union	4-0	def. (n) Gwynedd Mercy, 89-82 OT; won at Chatham, 97-73; won at Scranton, 80-76 OT; def. Pitt-Greensburg, 113-79; 11/22 vs. Wooster
#6	431	Oswego State	3-0	def. SUNYIT, 104-66; def. RPI, 73-45; def. Clarkson, 92-83; 11/21 vs. Nazareth
#7	389	Williams	4-1	LOST at T#43 WPI, 62-77; def. (n) Dickinson, 64-32; won at Vassar, 82-75; def. Worcester State, 69-62; def. St. Lawrence, 66-58 OT; 11/21 vs. Massachusetts College
#8	382	Hampden-Sydney	4-0	def. Greensboro, 74-48; def. (n) T#46 Widener, 72-63; def. (n) Rose-Hulman, 80-66
#9	332	New York University	3-1	def. #12 Johns Hopkins, 71-67; LOST to #11 Swarthmore, 70-71; won at Yeshiva, 97-78; 11/22 at Caltech; 11/25 at #49 Redlands
#10	326	Calvin	3-0	def. Denison, 75-64; def. (n) Marietta, 68-51; def. (n) La Roche, 74-54; 11/24 vs. Concordia (Wis.); 11/25 vs. Wilmington
#11	325	Swarthmore	3-1	LOST to (n) #22 Washington U., 56-76; won at #9 New York University, 71-70; won at Cabrini, 82-76; def. #35 DeSales, 68-64; 11/21 vs. Muhlenberg
#12	308	Johns Hopkins	2-3	LOST at #9 New York University, 67-71; LOST to (n) #22 Washington U., 61-67; won at York (Pa.), 64-62; LOST at #1 Christopher Newport, 73-75; 11/21 vs. Gettysburg
#13	275	Case Western Reserve	4-0	def. Pitt-Bradford, 104-73; def. Eastern, 82-72; won at La Roche, 78-58; won at Denison, 80-74 OT
#14	244	Randolph-Macon	1-2	def. (n) Pfeiffer, 84-59; LOST at Virginia Wesleyan, 44-49; LOST at #1 Christopher Newport, 54-64; 11/19 vs. Cal Lutheran
#15	234	Mary Hardin-Baylor	2-1	def. (n) UW-Stout, 84-71; won at #52 Illinois Wesleyan, 71-68; LOST at Texas Lutheran, 77-78; 11/24 at #34 St. Thomas (Texas)
#16	179	Wabash	2-2	LOST to Anderson, 67-72; def. (n) #21 North Park, 70-63; LOST at Illinois College, 53-68; 11/21 at Earlham; 11/26 vs. Rose-Hulman
#17	165	Catholic	3-0	def. Stevens, 79-74; def. (n) St. Mary's (Md.), 67-65; 11/19 vs. Hood; 11/21 vs. Marymount
#18	159	Carthage	3-1	won at Westminster (Pa.), 85-66; def. (n) Thiel, 70-66; LOST at Ripon, 71-76; won at Marian, 75-67; 11/20 vs. Anderson
#19	133	Emory	1-1	won at Piedmont, 91-83; LOST at #26 Guilford, 80-83 OT; 11/21 at Birmingham-Southern; 11/26 at T#41 Berry
#20	122	East Texas Baptist	0-2	LOST at #53 Pomona-Pitzer, 59-75; LOST at #49 Redlands, 65-99; 11/21 vs. #34 St. Thomas (Texas)
#21	120	North Park	2-2	def. Marian, 85-68; LOST to (n) #16 Wabash, 63-70; LOST to (n) Coe, 66-86; 11/25 at #25 UW-Oshkosh
#22	116	Washington U.	4-0	def. (n) #11 Swarthmore, 76-56; def. (n) #12 Johns Hopkins, 67-61; def. (n) #36 Babson, 90-85 OT; def. Hanover, 77-62; 11/22 vs. #52 Illinois Wesleyan; 11/26 at Rhodes
#23	113	Claremont-Mudd-Scripps	2-0	def. UC Santa Cruz, 81-44; won at Southwestern, 61-59; 11/19 vs. Trinity (Texas); 11/24 vs. George Fox; 11/25 vs. #45 Carleton
#24	96	Middlebury	0-4	LOST to #29 St. Joseph (Conn.), 62-68; LOST at Clark, 66-70; LOST to (n) #49 Redlands, 58-83; LOST at Wittenberg, 73-76; 11/26 vs. Endicott
#25	93	UW-Oshkosh	2-1	def. (n) La Roche, 77-68; LOST to (n) #49 Redlands, 62-82; 11/21 at Edgewood; 11/25 vs. #21 North Park

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	89	Guilford	3-0	won at N.C. Wesleyan, 75-59; def. #19 Emory, 83-80 OT; 11/21 vs. Pfeiffer
#27	83	Rowan	3-0	def. (n) Maryville (Tenn.), 94-90; def. (n) Wooster, 78-77; won at Eastern, 114-86; 11/21 vs. #31 Stockton; 11/25 vs. T#32 Mary Washington; 11/26 at #1 Christopher Newport
#28	64	Nichols	3-1	def. Bridgewater State, 93-83; LOST at #29 St. Joseph (Conn.), 70-77; def. Anna Maria, 65-60; 11/19 at Yeshiva
#29	63	St. Joseph (Conn.)	4-1	won at #24 Middlebury, 68-62; def. #28 Nichols, 77-70; def. (n) Colby, 79-70; LOST to (n) #55 Trinity (Conn.), 58-70
#30	62	UW-Platteville	3-1	def. St. Mary's (Minn.), 91-71; def. Gustavus Adolphus, 79-67; def. (n) St. John's, 80-78; LOST to (n) #4 Keene State, 75-93; 11/25 vs. Central
#31	53	Stockton	2-2	LOST to (n) Roanoke, 75-84; def. (n) King's, 91-75; def. (n) #4 Keene State, 87-71; LOST to (n) St. John's, 64-77; 11/21 at #27 Rowan
T#32	45	Wheaton (Ill.)	1-3	def. Lake Forest, 86-65; LOST to Piedmont, 66-79; LOST to Heidelberg, 60-78; 11/25 at Transylvania
T#32	45	Mary Washington	3-1	def. N.C. Wesleyan, 81-56; won at Hood, 81-72; def. Lynchburg, 79-52; 11/25 vs. #27 Rowan; 11/26 vs. Buffalo State
#34	41	St. Thomas (Texas)	3-1	def. Arlington Baptist, 97-61; def. Hardin-Simmons, 73-71; def. Texas-Dallas, 70-67; 11/21 at #20 East Texas Baptist; 11/24 vs. #15 Mary Hardin-Baylor; 11/26 vs. McMurry
#35	39	DeSales	2-1	def. Rosemont, 92-53; def. TCNJ, 72-62; LOST at #11 Swarthmore, 64-68; 11/21 at Moravian
#36	35	Babson	2-2	LOST at Albertus Magnus, 72-75; LOST to (n) #22 Washington U., 85-90 OT; def. (n) UW-Eau Claire, 78-71; 11/22 vs. Brandeis; 11/26 at Bates
#37	28	Elmhurst	3-0	def. Concordia-Chicago, 77-72; won at Transylvania, 87-63; won at Mount St. Joseph, 73-56; 11/25 at Olivet
#38	23	Utica	2-1	def. SUNY Potsdam, 86-70; LOST at Morrisville State, 72-85; won at Buffalo State, 86-57; 11/20 vs. SUNYIT
T#39	19	Hope	1-0	def. Manchester, 75-64; 11/24 vs. Wilmington; 11/25 vs. Concordia (Wis.)
T#39	19	Maryville	2-2	LOST to (n) #27 Rowan, 90-94; LOST at Rochester, 66-87; won at Sewanee, 73-70; def. (n) Westminster (Mo.), 87-68; 11/19 at Webster; 11/26 at Averett
T#41	18	Berry	1-2	LOST at Belhaven, 87-94; def. (n) Southern Virginia, 86-76; LOST at Roanoke, 58-79; 11/21 at LaGrange; 11/26 vs. #19 Emory
T#41	18	Trine	4-0	def. (n) Hanover, 85-63; won at Mount St. Joseph, 71-54; def. Franklin, 79-58; def. Baldwin Wallace, 76-70; 11/25 vs. Ohio Wesleyan
T#43	16	WPI	5-0	def. #7 Williams, 77-62; def. St. Joseph's (Maine), 69-49; def. (n) Johnson and Wales, 85-51; won at Bridgewater State, 84-65; 11/20 at Fitchburg State
T#43	16	Tufts	3-0	won at Endicott, 78-63; def. Emerson, 72-53; won at Suffolk, 76-62; 11/21 at MIT; 11/25 at Mass-Boston
#45	14	Carleton	1-0	def. North Central (Minn.), 57-50; 11/21 vs. St. John's; 11/24 at #53 Pomona-Pitzer; 11/25 at #23 Claremont-Mudd-Scripps
T#46	10	St. Norbert	3-0	won at UW-Eau Claire, 76-64; def. Lawrence, 86-55; 11/21 vs. Concordia-Chicago
T#46	10	Widener	4-1	def. King's, 105-80; def. Roanoke, 85-74; def. Ursinus, 86-73; LOST to (n) #8 Hampden-Sydney, 63-72; won at Wooster, 72-68; 11/26 vs. Salisbury
#48	9	Hamilton	1-1	LOST to Ithaca, 67-74; def. Morrisville State, 90-68; 11/19 vs. Neumann; 11/21 at Drew
#49	8	Redlands	4-0	def. Puget Sound, 112-82; def. #20 East Texas Baptist, 99-65; def. (n) #24 Middlebury, 83-58; def. (n) #25 UW-Oshkosh, 82-62; 11/25 vs. #9 New York University
T#50	7	Whitman	1-2	def. St. Olaf, 80-64; LOST to Carnegie Mellon, 75-86; LOST to (n) Trinity (Texas), 58-86; 11/19 at Southwestern; 11/22 at University of Dallas
T#50	7	Macalester	3-1	won at Wartburg, 75-72; won at UW-Stout, 102-93; won at MIT, 92-72; 11/21 vs. Concordia-Moorhead
#52	6	Illinois Wesleyan	2-2	def. Ohio Wesleyan, 84-55; LOST to #15 Mary Hardin-Baylor, 68-71; won at Wittenberg, 72-59; LOST to (n) Marietta, 63-67; 11/22 at #22 Washington U.; 11/25 vs. Chicago
#53	5	Pomona-Pitzer	3-0	def. #20 East Texas Baptist, 75-59; def. Stanton, 82-56; def. UC Santa Cruz, 74-66; 11/24 vs. #45 Carleton; 11/25 vs. George Fox
#54	4	Montclair State	2-1	won at Lycoming, 85-49; won at Penn College, 89-87; LOST to Albertus Magnus, 83-86 2OT; 11/21 vs. New Jersey City
#55	1	Trinity (Conn.)	5-0	won at Regis (Mass.), 71-56; def. Hartford, 74-38; def. Wheaton (Mass.), 74-57; won at Mass-Dartmouth, 84-52; def. (n) #29 St. Joseph (Conn.), 70-58; 11/21 at Elms

[SpringSt7]

Good luck to the voters - lot of information to sort through for the first poll.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

It looks like my program still works!

I assume that the first in-season poll is coming out a week from tomorrow, so here is the report through today, as well as games coming up in the next week.

Let me know if you see anything "off" in this report; it is possible that a couple of exhibition results got included.

Awesome to see you posting this again - thank you Darryl!!!  One quick correction - appears that you are missing the scores for the CNU loss at Hampden-Sydney (74-53 on 11/8) - and it is also missing for H-S.  You've got both teams records right but that game is not listed

[Darryl Nester]

It looks like my program still works!

I assume that the first in-season poll is coming out a week from tomorrow, so here is the report through today, as well as games coming up in the next week.

Let me know if you see anything "off" in this report; it is possible that a couple of exhibition results got included.

Awesome to see you posting this again - thank you Darryl!!!  One quick correction - appears that you are missing the scores for the CNU loss at Hampden-Sydney (74-53 on 11/8) - and it is also missing for H-S.  You've got both teams records right but that game is not listed

Thanks for the correction, FDF. It looks like I missed all of the results for 11/8; for the first run of the season, I have to manually specify when the season started, and I forgot that my program starts collecting scores from the day AFTER the one I specify.

I won't bother correcting the post above, but I'll make sure I get it right in next Sunday's report.

[nescac1]

Not sure if any future games count, but based on what has transpired to date, I'd guess that Hopkins, RMC, Wabash, Carthage, East Texas Baptist, North Park, Middlebury, Oshkosh are out, and replaced by:

Guilford, Redlands, WPI, Rowan, Elmhurst, Tufts, Trine, Trinity.  Nichols and St. Joe's have a case but St. Joe's beat Nichols, Trinity beat St. Joe's, and Trinity has otherwise been undefeated so they squeeze in.

Biggest risers: Wash U., Redlands, WPI, Hampden Sydney, all of whom should rocket up.

Battle for number one: Whitewater, JCU and HSC are the top three contenders, but Oswego, Wash U., Calvin and Redlands all have an argument! 

[WPI89]

First in season poll is today, correct?