Top 25 talk

[Greek Tragedy]

First in season poll is today, correct?

Next week.

[WPI89]

Gotcha - thanks!

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (Complete)

Top 25

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#1	624	Christopher Newport	5-2	LOST at #8 Hampden-Sydney, 53-74; def. (n) Kenyon, 94-68; LOST at Marietta, 69-73; def. #14 Randolph-Macon, 64-54; def. #12 Johns Hopkins, 75-73; def. Buffalo State, 90-54; def. #27 Rowan, 83-73
#2	580	UW-Whitewater	5-0	def. Gustavus Adolphus, 88-59; def. St. Mary's (Minn.), 71-53; def. Carroll, 86-77; def. Augustana, 93-79; won at Ripon, 77-56
#3	519	John Carroll	4-0	def. (n) SUNY Geneseo, 76-66; won at SUNY Oneonta, 106-75; def. (n) Penn State-Harrisburg, 83-63; won at Susquehanna, 83-73
#4	507	Keene State	4-1	def. Western New England, 105-69; LOST to (n) #31 Stockton, 71-87; def. (n) #30 UW-Platteville, 93-75; won at Connecticut College, 80-64; won at MIT, 119-81
#5	496	Mount Union	5-0	def. (n) Gwynedd Mercy, 89-82 OT; won at Chatham, 97-73; won at Scranton, 80-76 OT; def. Pitt-Greensburg, 113-79; def. Wooster, 75-51
#6	431	Oswego State	4-0	def. SUNYIT, 104-66; def. RPI, 73-45; def. Clarkson, 92-83; def. Nazareth, 79-68
#7	389	Williams	5-1	LOST at T#43 WPI, 62-77; def. (n) Dickinson, 64-32; won at Vassar, 82-75; def. Worcester State, 69-62; def. St. Lawrence, 66-58 OT; def. Massachusetts College, 56-41
#8	382	Hampden-Sydney	4-0	def. #1 Christopher Newport, 74-53; def. Greensboro, 74-48; def. (n) T#46 Widener, 72-63; def. (n) Rose-Hulman, 80-66
#9	332	New York University	5-1	def. Manhattanville, 77-60; def. #12 Johns Hopkins, 71-67; LOST to #11 Swarthmore, 70-71; won at Yeshiva, 97-78; won at Caltech, 78-69; won at #49 Redlands, 82-79
#10	326	Calvin	5-0	def. Denison, 75-64; def. (n) Marietta, 68-51; def. (n) La Roche, 74-54; def. Concordia (Wis.), 73-65; def. Wilmington, 75-45
#11	325	Swarthmore	4-1	LOST to (n) #22 Washington U., 56-76; won at #9 New York University, 71-70; won at Cabrini, 82-76; def. #35 DeSales, 68-64; def. Muhlenberg, 77-58
#12	308	Johns Hopkins	2-4	def. Marymount, 86-76; LOST at #9 New York University, 67-71; LOST to (n) #22 Washington U., 61-67; won at York (Pa.), 64-62; LOST at #1 Christopher Newport, 73-75; LOST to Gettysburg, 56-70
#13	275	Case Western Reserve	4-0	def. Pitt-Bradford, 104-73; def. Eastern, 82-72; won at La Roche, 78-58; won at Denison, 80-74 OT
#14	244	Randolph-Macon	2-2	def. (n) Pfeiffer, 84-59; LOST at Virginia Wesleyan, 44-49; LOST at #1 Christopher Newport, 54-64; def. Cal Lutheran, 60-51
#15	234	Mary Hardin-Baylor	2-2	def. (n) UW-Stout, 84-71; won at #52 Illinois Wesleyan, 71-68; LOST at Texas Lutheran, 77-78; LOST at #34 St. Thomas (Texas), 82-90 OT
#16	179	Wabash	4-2	won at Mount St. Joseph, 71-58; LOST to Anderson, 67-72; def. (n) #21 North Park, 70-63; LOST at Illinois College, 53-68; won at Earlham, 63-46; def. Rose-Hulman, 84-42
#17	165	Catholic	4-1	def. T#32 Mary Washington, 60-59; def. Stevens, 79-74; def. (n) St. Mary's (Md.), 67-65; LOST to (n) Hood, 63-65; def. Marymount, 66-59
#18	159	Carthage	4-1	won at Westminster (Pa.), 85-66; def. (n) Thiel, 70-66; LOST at Ripon, 71-76; won at Marian, 75-67; def. Anderson, 94-87
#19	133	Emory	3-1	won at Piedmont, 91-83; LOST at #26 Guilford, 80-83 OT; won at Birmingham-Southern, 99-70; won at T#41 Berry, 90-72
#20	122	East Texas Baptist	0-3	LOST at #53 Pomona-Pitzer, 59-75; LOST at #49 Redlands, 65-99; LOST to #34 St. Thomas (Texas), 58-68
#21	120	North Park	2-3	won at Lawrence, 84-57; def. Marian, 85-68; LOST to (n) #16 Wabash, 63-70; LOST to (n) Coe, 66-86; LOST at #25 UW-Oshkosh, 64-69
#22	116	Washington U.	5-1	def. (n) #11 Swarthmore, 76-56; def. (n) #12 Johns Hopkins, 67-61; def. #36 Babson, 90-85 OT; def. Hanover, 77-62; LOST to #52 Illinois Wesleyan, 50-76; won at Rhodes, 78-74
#23	113	Claremont-Mudd-Scripps	2-3	def. UC Santa Cruz, 81-44; won at Southwestern, 61-59; LOST to (n) Trinity (Texas), 64-74; LOST to George Fox, 84-88; LOST to #45 Carleton, 75-83
#24	96	Middlebury	1-4	LOST to #29 St. Joseph (Conn.), 62-68; LOST at Clark, 66-70; LOST to (n) #49 Redlands, 58-83; LOST at Wittenberg, 73-76; def. Endicott, 90-86
#25	93	UW-Oshkosh	4-1	def. Illinois Tech, 88-58; def. (n) La Roche, 77-68; LOST to (n) #49 Redlands, 62-82; won at Edgewood, 82-67; def. #21 North Park, 69-64

Others receiving votes

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#26	89	Guilford	4-0	won at Methodist, 74-59; won at N.C. Wesleyan, 75-59; def. #19 Emory, 83-80 OT; def. Pfeiffer, 64-57
#27	83	Rowan	4-2	def. (n) Maryville (Tenn.), 94-90; def. (n) Wooster, 78-77; won at Eastern, 114-86; LOST to #31 Stockton, 73-76; def. (n) T#32 Mary Washington, 76-75 OT; LOST at #1 Christopher Newport, 73-83
#28	64	Nichols	4-1	def. Emmanuel, 86-70; def. Bridgewater State, 93-83; LOST at #29 St. Joseph (Conn.), 70-77; def. Anna Maria, 65-60; won at Yeshiva, 97-92
#29	63	St. Joseph (Conn.)	4-1	def. Yeshiva, 83-79; won at #24 Middlebury, 68-62; def. #28 Nichols, 77-70; def. (n) Colby, 79-70; LOST to (n) #55 Trinity (Conn.), 58-70
#30	62	UW-Platteville	4-1	def. St. Mary's (Minn.), 91-71; def. Gustavus Adolphus, 79-67; def. (n) St. John's, 80-78; LOST to (n) #4 Keene State, 75-93; def. Central, 66-65

(split into two posts because of length restrictions)

[Darryl Nester]

How They Fared (continued)

Rank	Pts	Team	W-L	Results
#31	53	Stockton	3-2	LOST to (n) Roanoke, 75-84; def. (n) King's, 91-75; def. (n) #4 Keene State, 87-71; LOST to (n) St. John's, 64-77; won at #27 Rowan, 76-73
T#32	45	Wheaton (Ill.)	1-4	LOST to Benedictine, 59-60; def. Lake Forest, 86-65; LOST to Piedmont, 66-79; LOST to Heidelberg, 60-78; LOST at Transylvania, 65-71
T#32	45	Mary Washington	4-2	LOST at #17 Catholic, 59-60; def. N.C. Wesleyan, 81-56; won at Hood, 81-72; def. Lynchburg, 79-52; LOST to (n) #27 Rowan, 75-76 OT; def. (n) Buffalo State, 94-42
#34	41	St. Thomas (Texas)	6-1	LOST at LeTourneau, 69-72; def. Arlington Baptist, 97-61; def. Hardin-Simmons, 73-71; def. Texas-Dallas, 70-67; won at #20 East Texas Baptist, 68-58; def. #15 Mary Hardin-Baylor, 90-82 OT; def. McMurry, 89-76
#35	39	DeSales	3-1	def. Rosemont, 92-53; def. TCNJ, 72-62; LOST at #11 Swarthmore, 64-68; won at Moravian, 89-77
#36	35	Babson	4-2	def. Lasell, 86-53; LOST at Albertus Magnus, 72-75; LOST at #22 Washington U., 85-90 OT; def. (n) UW-Eau Claire, 78-71; def. Brandeis, 78-65; won at Bates, 77-53
#37	28	Elmhurst	4-0	def. Concordia-Chicago, 77-72; won at Transylvania, 87-63; won at Mount St. Joseph, 73-56; won at Olivet, 76-64
#38	23	Utica	3-1	def. SUNY Potsdam, 86-70; LOST at Morrisville State, 72-85; won at Buffalo State, 86-57; def. SUNYIT, 71-56
T#39	19	Hope	3-0	def. Manchester, 75-64; def. Wilmington, 92-68; def. Concordia (Wis.), 96-49
T#39	19	Maryville	4-2	LOST to (n) #27 Rowan, 90-94; LOST at Rochester, 66-87; won at Sewanee, 73-70; def. (n) Westminster (Mo.), 87-68; won at Webster, 77-54; won at Averett, 77-49
T#41	18	Berry	2-3	LOST at Belhaven, 87-94; def. (n) Southern Virginia, 86-76; LOST at Roanoke, 58-79; won at LaGrange, 91-69; LOST to #19 Emory, 72-90
T#41	18	Trine	5-0	def. (n) Hanover, 85-63; won at Mount St. Joseph, 71-54; def. Franklin, 79-58; def. Baldwin Wallace, 76-70; def. Ohio Wesleyan, 93-58
T#43	16	WPI	6-0	won at Worcester State, 77-65; def. #7 Williams, 77-62; def. St. Joseph's (Maine), 69-49; def. (n) Johnson and Wales, 85-51; won at Bridgewater State, 84-65; won at Fitchburg State, 75-69
T#43	16	Tufts	5-0	won at Endicott, 78-63; def. Emerson, 72-53; won at Suffolk, 76-62; won at MIT, 91-82; won at Mass-Boston, 83-41
#45	14	Carleton	2-2	def. North Central (Minn.), 57-50; LOST to St. John's, 72-74; LOST to (n) #53 Pomona-Pitzer, 64-67; won at #23 Claremont-Mudd-Scripps, 83-75
T#46	10	St. Norbert	4-0	def. Ripon, 82-77 OT; won at UW-Eau Claire, 76-64; def. Lawrence, 86-55; def. Concordia-Chicago, 86-80
T#46	10	Widener	5-1	def. King's, 105-80; def. Roanoke, 85-74; def. Ursinus, 86-73; LOST to (n) #8 Hampden-Sydney, 63-72; won at Wooster, 72-68; def. Salisbury, 71-49
#48	9	Hamilton	2-2	LOST to Ithaca, 67-74; def. Morrisville State, 90-68; def. Neumann, 83-65; LOST at Drew, 65-77
#49	8	Redlands	4-1	def. Puget Sound, 112-82; def. #20 East Texas Baptist, 99-65; def. (n) #24 Middlebury, 83-58; def. (n) #25 UW-Oshkosh, 82-62; LOST to #9 New York University, 79-82
T#50	7	Whitman	3-2	def. St. Olaf, 80-64; LOST to Carnegie Mellon, 75-86; LOST to (n) Trinity (Texas), 58-86; won at Southwestern, 82-73; won at University of Dallas, 85-81
T#50	7	Macalester	3-2	LOST to UW-Superior, 73-88; won at Wartburg, 75-72; won at UW-Stout, 102-93; won at MIT, 92-72; LOST to Concordia-Moorhead, 70-81
#52	6	Illinois Wesleyan	4-2	def. Ohio Wesleyan, 84-55; LOST to #15 Mary Hardin-Baylor, 68-71; won at Wittenberg, 72-59; LOST to (n) Marietta, 63-67; won at #22 Washington U., 76-50; def. Chicago, 75-69
#53	5	Pomona-Pitzer	5-0	def. #20 East Texas Baptist, 75-59; def. Stanton, 82-56; def. UC Santa Cruz, 74-66; def. (n) #45 Carleton, 67-64; def. George Fox, 79-65
#54	4	Montclair State	3-1	won at Lycoming, 85-49; won at Penn College, 89-87; LOST to Albertus Magnus, 83-86 2OT; def. New Jersey City, 83-82 OT
#55	1	Trinity (Conn.)	6-0	won at Regis (Mass.), 71-56; def. Hartford, 74-38; def. Wheaton (Mass.), 74-57; won at Mass-Dartmouth, 84-52; def. (n) #29 St. Joseph (Conn.), 70-58; won at Elms, 95-60

[SpartyBlue]

I'll put on my crash helmet here and just throw this out there--in my view IWU doesn't deserved to be ranked top 25 at this point.  Two losses should disqualify you over other zero or one loss teams, no matter the nice win over Wash U.  Obviously I'm a homer, but Coe and Dubuque out of the stronger at the moment ARC are deserving, teams like IC, Trinity Tx. and Albertus should have gotten in over IWU at this stage.  Albertus in particular has a similar SoS as the Titans and is 5-0 and ranked 13 spots higher by Massey. 

I understand the top 25 is rather unscientific, ultimately not super meaningful,  and (it seems anyway) heavily influenced by social media voices; but it's still a nice piece of public relations for teams to be able to put out there and makes it more exciting for conferences in general. 

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I'll put on my crash helmet here and just throw this out there--in my view IWU doesn't deserved to be ranked top 25 at this point.  Two losses should disqualify you over other zero or one loss teams, no matter the nice win over Wash U.  Obviously I'm a homer, but Coe and Dubuque out of the stronger at the moment ARC are deserving, teams like IC, Trinity Tx. and Albertus should have gotten in over IWU at this stage.  Albertus in particular has a similar SoS as the Titans and is 5-0 and ranked 13 spots higher by Massey. 

I understand the top 25 is rather unscientific, ultimately not super meaningful,  and (it seems anyway) heavily influenced by social media voices; but it's still a nice piece of public relations for teams to be able to put out there and makes it more exciting for conferences in general.

That's a fine take, for sure.  Not going to argue, necessarily, but I also think there's a pretty strong case for them being on there.

With so few overall games and so many games between good teams early, there's a lot of guesswork.  Personally, when I approached the ballot this week, I'd look at a team's schedule and first check the losses - if they're all "excusable" (meaning non-blowouts to good teams), I'd then proceed to look at the wins.

With IWU, there's the added benefit that I've seen them in person - my evaluation was that there's a lot of talent that doesn't really know how to properly express itself.  The WashU win was an example of that.  Does that mean they'll continue to put it together?  Not necessarily, but they did follow it up with a pretty good performance against Chicago.  I thought both of those games were better than the ones they'd played before, which shows improvement.

At this point, they've played a VERY good schedule, have a lot of talent, and seem to be getting better.  That was enough for me to get them on the ballot - but there's an inordinate number of very good teams out there right now and nobody really separating themselves from anyone else.

I could list 50 teams, easily, and not be surprised if they beat or lost to any of the others.  That's pretty rare.

It's reasonable to have IWU in the Top 25 right now and its quite reasonable not to do so.

[SpartyBlue]

I'll put on my crash helmet here and just throw this out there--in my view IWU doesn't deserved to be ranked top 25 at this point.  Two losses should disqualify you over other zero or one loss teams, no matter the nice win over Wash U.  Obviously I'm a homer, but Coe and Dubuque out of the stronger at the moment ARC are deserving, teams like IC, Trinity Tx. and Albertus should have gotten in over IWU at this stage.  Albertus in particular has a similar SoS as the Titans and is 5-0 and ranked 13 spots higher by Massey. 

I understand the top 25 is rather unscientific, ultimately not super meaningful,  and (it seems anyway) heavily influenced by social media voices; but it's still a nice piece of public relations for teams to be able to put out there and makes it more exciting for conferences in general.

That's a fine take, for sure.  Not going to argue, necessarily, but I also think there's a pretty strong case for them being on there.

With so few overall games and so many games between good teams early, there's a lot of guesswork.  Personally, when I approached the ballot this week, I'd look at a team's schedule and first check the losses - if they're all "excusable" (meaning non-blowouts to good teams), I'd then proceed to look at the wins.

With IWU, there's the added benefit that I've seen them in person - my evaluation was that there's a lot of talent that doesn't really know how to properly express itself.  The WashU win was an example of that.  Does that mean they'll continue to put it together?  Not necessarily, but they did follow it up with a pretty good performance against Chicago.  I thought both of those games were better than the ones they'd played before, which shows improvement.

At this point, they've played a VERY good schedule, have a lot of talent, and seem to be getting better.  That was enough for me to get them on the ballot - but there's an inordinate number of very good teams out there right now and nobody really separating themselves from anyone else.

I could list 50 teams, easily, and not be surprised if they beat or lost to any of the others.  That's pretty rare.

It's reasonable to have IWU in the Top 25 right now and its quite reasonable not to do so.

You're very knowledgeable and probably watch more than I do, but for my way of thinking, you more completely make my point with several of your arguments for. 

1. Lots of talent...yes, maybe, some talented players for sure but..."hasn't found a way to express itself" to me means wait and see if they translate talent into more wins. 

2.  Excusable losses.  To me, at this early stage, one loss may be excusable, two isn't.  The teams with decent SoS who have found ways to stay undefeated or lost one to a really good opponent should be rewarded over a potentially very good team who still has lost twice. 

3.  Also, "pretty good" and "improvement" over a decent but not great Chicago aren't ringing endorsements.

Nonetheless, this is no criticism of you or knock on IWU--I understand the process is subjective and doesn't impact seeding as such--it's just, to me it feels like IWU is there due to their enhanced visibility over early season resume. 

[Flying Dutch Fan]

I noted that we had 10 teams drop out of the Top 25 from the Preseason to Week 1 rankings.  That felt to me like a big number, so I looked back at the archives for some perspective.  Since the poll began (99-00 season) the average number of teams that drop out in week 1 is 5.5.  The most ever is indeed 10, both this season and in 15-16.  The best the pollseters have done was in that first poll (99-00) where 1 team dropped out in week 1. 

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I noted that we had 10 teams drop out of the Top 25 from the Preseason to Week 1 rankings.  That felt to me like a big number, so I looked back at the archives for some perspective.  Since the poll began (99-00 season) the average number of teams that drop out in week 1 is 5.5.  The most ever is indeed 10, both this season and in 15-16.  The best the pollseters have done was in that first poll (99-00) where 1 team dropped out in week 1.

Did you happen to note the dates?  If I recall, it's not always been three weeks between the start of the season and the first regular season poll.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I'd say the number of losses that can be "excusable" is directly proportional to how many will knock them out of Pool C consideration. 

[Flying Dutch Fan]

I noted that we had 10 teams drop out of the Top 25 from the Preseason to Week 1 rankings.  That felt to me like a big number, so I looked back at the archives for some perspective.  Since the poll began (99-00 season) the average number of teams that drop out in week 1 is 5.5.  The most ever is indeed 10, both this season and in 15-16.  The best the pollseters have done was in that first poll (99-00) where 1 team dropped out in week 1.

Did you happen to note the dates?  If I recall, it's not always been three weeks between the start of the season and the first regular season poll.

I did not.  I assume (as you say) the time span varied as I recall some years most teams had only played 3 games by the week 1 rankings, while others (like this year) many are at 5 or 6.

[ziggy]

I'll put on my crash helmet here and just throw this out there--in my view IWU doesn't deserved to be ranked top 25 at this point.  Two losses should disqualify you over other zero or one loss teams, no matter the nice win over Wash U.  Obviously I'm a homer, but Coe and Dubuque out of the stronger at the moment ARC are deserving, teams like IC, Trinity Tx. and Albertus should have gotten in over IWU at this stage.  Albertus in particular has a similar SoS as the Titans and is 5-0 and ranked 13 spots higher by Massey. 

I understand the top 25 is rather unscientific, ultimately not super meaningful,  and (it seems anyway) heavily influenced by social media voices; but it's still a nice piece of public relations for teams to be able to put out there and makes it more exciting for conferences in general.

Beyond all the early-season caveats that apply with Massey, his system is having a massive problem with Hartford's move to D3. It is likely Albertus is getting more credit than actually deserved by beating Hartford, which the Massey Ratings have ranked 24 right now. I think we can all be pretty confident Hartford is not anywhere near a Top 25 team. We have Hartford ranked 227 in the D3 Datacast efficiency ratings.

I understand the concern with Illinois Wesleyan having two losses but I consider the win at WashU one of the more impressive wins so far this season considering the opponent, location and margin.

[Gregory Sager]

Carthage 77
UW-Whitewater 73

What a fun game to watch! Each team had a massive run in the second half that swung the game by somewhere between 17 and 20 points -- Carthage early in the half, UWW in the final seven minutes. The Warhawks actually came all the way back from being 16 down at the seven-minute mark to take a one-point lead, but the Firebirds gutted it out by controlling the defensive boards and hitting 10-10 from the line in the final two minutes, with all ten of those makes courtesy of the Johnson brothers.

[stlawus]

I'll put on my crash helmet here and just throw this out there--in my view IWU doesn't deserved to be ranked top 25 at this point.  Two losses should disqualify you over other zero or one loss teams, no matter the nice win over Wash U.  Obviously I'm a homer, but Coe and Dubuque out of the stronger at the moment ARC are deserving, teams like IC, Trinity Tx. and Albertus should have gotten in over IWU at this stage.  Albertus in particular has a similar SoS as the Titans and is 5-0 and ranked 13 spots higher by Massey. 

I understand the top 25 is rather unscientific, ultimately not super meaningful, and (it seems anyway) heavily influenced by social media voices; but it's still a nice piece of public relations for teams to be able to put out there and makes it more exciting for conferences in general.

There does seem to be a circular feedback dynamic here.  No one is going to complain about d3 basketball discussion and exposure on social media, but to me this has been apparent the past season or 2. 

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

You guys discussing IWU and whether they should be in the poll... you should have been around during football season. Mary Hardin-Baylor started the year ranked 3rd but played a brutal non-conference schedule and were 0-3 but still hanging in the poll at 23. The three teams that beat them were ranked 4, 6, and 7 in that poll.