Top 25 talk

[Stretch4]

Just an observation on this weeks Top 25 ... the three voters who gave Illinois Wesleyan their # 1 vote over Wesleyan in the latest poll either have their own agenda (I know Bob Q did not vote IWU #1 as he shares his votes on social media), or they are essentially not paying attention. One undefeated team in the country who plays in a top 3 conference in the country, and just defeated another top 10 team last week, and you give IWU who needed OT to get past a bad Carrol team last week your #1 vote? Of course IWU is a top 3 or top 5 team right now, but until Wesleyan loses a game you seriously cannot vote anyone else # 1. 

[Pat Coleman]

Just an observation on this weeks Top 25 ... the three voters who gave Illinois Wesleyan their # 1 vote over Wesleyan in the latest poll either have their own agenda (I know Bob Q did not vote IWU #1 as he shares his votes on social media), or they are essentially not paying attention. One undefeated team in the country who plays in a top 3 conference in the country, and just defeated another top 10 team last week, and you give IWU who needed OT to get past a bad Carrol team last week your #1 vote? Of course IWU is a top 3 or top 5 team right now, but until Wesleyan loses a game you seriously cannot vote anyone else # 1. 

They're probably looking more at IWU's wins against Top 25 teams, such as the one against Platteville. But I agree -- IWU did not look great in the Carroll game.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Just an observation on this weeks Top 25 ... the three voters who gave Illinois Wesleyan their # 1 vote over Wesleyan in the latest poll either have their own agenda (I know Bob Q did not vote IWU #1 as he shares his votes on social media), or they are essentially not paying attention. One undefeated team in the country who plays in a top 3 conference in the country, and just defeated another top 10 team last week, and you give IWU who needed OT to get past a bad Carrol team last week your #1 vote? Of course IWU is a top 3 or top 5 team right now, but until Wesleyan loses a game you seriously cannot vote anyone else # 1. 

I'm one of the three.

Wesleyan is good. They've proven on the court they're much better than I gave them credit for early on.  Still, I'm not sure they're the top team.  They probably have the best or second best backcourt in the country, but I'm also not entirely sure Trinity isn't ranked a little too high.  I still have a few questions about them.

I voted Platteville last week, because I think you're getting their best game more consistently than IWU.  However, despite a few disjointed games, I think when you get an A+ game out of IWU, they're pretty much unbeatable.  The ceiling is super high.

I made a concerted effort this week to move away from ranking resumes and looking forward to which teams I have most confidence in to win in big moments in March.

Has IWU played down to the level of opponent from time to time?  Yes.  Absolutely.  Have they shown up massively in pretty much every big game they've had?  Also yes.  I'm willing to roll the dice that they'll be ready to play when they need to.

I'm rooting for all three teams to make it to the Final Four so we can settle it on the court.

[Gregory Sager]

Has IWU played down to the level of opponent from time to time?  Yes.  Absolutely.

"From time to time" is not a specific term, so let's talk specifics: In its eleven CCIW games to date, Illinois Wesleyan has lost once and been forced to win in overtime on three different occasions -- versus North Central (11-9, 4-7), versus Wheaton (3-16, 0-10), and versus Carroll (6-13, 2-8). The Titans' other game against Carroll, which they won by six, was tied with a minute and a half to go.

Your mileage may vary, but it seems to me that "from time to time" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in your description of the Titans.

Have they shown up massively in pretty much every big game they've had?  Also yes.

Carthage begs to differ.

Is Illinois Wesleyan a Top 5 team? Absolutely. Is Illinois Wesleyan still the favorite to win the CCIW? Absolutely. Is Illinois Wesleyan the #1 team in the country? No. And, since the most high-profile supporter of the Titans isn't even putting his alma mater at the top of his D3hoops.com Top 25 ballot, I think I'm pretty justified in saying that.

[Stretch4]

Ryan - I appreciate you sharing your reasoning on why you voted IWU # 1 in your poll this past week. Like many of us, I think you may be over-analyzing things a bit. Maybe at their best IWU is the best team in the country. But in a weekly top 25 poll at this point in the season, I think it is the job of the voters to rank teams based on the accomplishments of the season to date. If you do that, then right now the vote has to be an undefeated Wesleyan team. 

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Ryan - I appreciate you sharing your reasoning on why you voted IWU # 1 in your poll this past week. Like many of us, I think you may be over-analyzing things a bit. Maybe at their best IWU is the best team in the country. But in a weekly top 25 poll at this point in the season, I think it is the job of the voters to rank teams based on the accomplishments of the season to date. If you do that, then right now the vote has to be an undefeated Wesleyan team. 

That's never my goal. From the preseason on, I try to rank the 25 teams as I expect them to be in March.  Obviously, actual results on the floor affect that through the course of the year, as do injuries and other issues.  In a world of sophisticated computer rankings, I, personally, don't think there's much value in a human poll trying to rank teams based solely on performance.  We've got much better ways to measure that.

That also means I have to be comfortable being wrong and willing to take criticism.  I've come to peace with both.

[Gregory Sager]

But in a weekly top 25 poll at this point in the season, I think it is the job of the voters to rank teams based on the accomplishments of the season to date. If you do that, then right now the vote has to be an undefeated Wesleyan team. 

I'm gonna push back on that. It's simply not true that "it is the job of the voters to rank teams based on the accomplishments of the season to date." One would hope that actual results on the floor are what's driving the ballot decisions of the voters (especially by February), but it's not required. To the best of my knowledge Pat Coleman has never given a written mandate by which a D3hoops.com voter must abide. The voter is welcome to use his or her own criteria in putting together a ballot, no matter how esoteric. I happen to agree with you that Ryan's methodology is a little out-there in this particular instance, but he is perfectly within his rights to construct his ballot in any way he sees fit.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

In the end, I had three teams.  I ranked them in the order I'd pick them if they were playing each other.  Obviously, at this level of talent, anyone can win on any given night, but it's a prediction game, and, right now, I think IWU's ceiling is pretty convincing.

[Pat Coleman]

I think it is the job of the voters to rank teams based on the accomplishments of the season to date.

I specifically do not ask them to do this. I ask them to rank teams, and they can choose the methodology.

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

Just wanted to correct this from the front page

The latest D3hoops.com men's basketball Top 25 includes the Anderson Ravens, who are in the poll for the first time in more than 14 years. Check out the full ranking.

Anderson was ranked 25th in week 1 this year when they were 4-1. They immediately lost to North Park to drop back out. But at 17-3 they're back in.

[Stretch4]

I found it kind of funny after the discussion earlier this week that IWU went out and lost to an inferior team (not trying to slight North Central - just stating that in comparison to IWU they are inferior). Maybe the IWU ceiling isn't quite as high as some folks believe. 

[ziggy]

I found it kind of funny after the discussion earlier this week that IWU went out and lost to an inferior team (not trying to slight North Central - just stating that in comparison to IWU they are inferior). Maybe the IWU ceiling isn't quite as high as some folks believe. 

I don't question the ceiling at all, however they do seem to have a lower floor than other contenders.

[CNU85]

Very interesting insight in how things work and how individuals view things differently. Just for fun, I sat back and asked myself, how would I go about ranking the top 25? What approach would I take?

I came up with a 2 work reply:

Beats me!

Seriously, how would I be able to objectively (as possible) rank teams I am totally unfamiliar with? For those who vote, I say thank you. I'm assuming you spend some time in getting to understand the top teams and follow their progress. It's a lot of work. I'm glad I don't have to do it!

[Greek Tragedy]

I found it kind of funny after the discussion earlier this week that IWU went out and lost to an inferior team (not trying to slight North Central - just stating that in comparison to IWU they are inferior). Maybe the IWU ceiling isn't quite as high as some folks believe. 

I don't question the ceiling at all, however they do seem to have a lower floor than other contenders.

IWU did beat NCC the first time around...in 3 OTs. I do think their floor is lower. It's taken them OTs to beat the 3 bottom teams in the CCIW.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I found it kind of funny after the discussion earlier this week that IWU went out and lost to an inferior team (not trying to slight North Central - just stating that in comparison to IWU they are inferior). Maybe the IWU ceiling isn't quite as high as some folks believe. 

I don't question the ceiling at all, however they do seem to have a lower floor than other contenders.

That's why I had them lower most of the year.  Figures the week I decide to give them the benefit of the doubt they lose this game.